Soul Bruises
As a lifelong believer in Christ, I’ve grown weary of witnessing harm within spiritual settings. I’m tired of pretending it isn’t happening or convincing myself that spiritual abuse isn’t a serious issue—one that not only plagues the church but is also spreading beyond religious institutions.
This is why the Soul Bruises podcast was created. It’s dedicated to exposing, educating, and ultimately working toward the eradication of spiritual abuse in all its forms. Whether you can relate to my experiences or bring your own perspective to the table, I hope Soul Bruises offers a balanced and thorough exploration of the issue.
Whether you’re a spiritual leader, a member of a church, or someone with no connection to God or religion, I challenge you to reconsider your assumptions about spiritual abuse. I encourage you to tune in.
With each episode, I hope you gain a clearer understanding of what spiritual abuse is, how it manifests in religious and non-religious settings, who it affects, and why it’s crucial to address it with honesty and purpose.
Soul Bruises
Episode 19 - Breaking Out Of The Cage: Rebellion, Misplaced Loyalty and Authentic Faith - Part 2 of 3 (Featuring Pastor/Chaplain Kristy Hodson)
What parts of yourself have you cut off to fit into someone else's spiritual mold? In this raw and revealing conversation, Pastor Kristy Hodson shares her journey through a high-control religious environment where authenticity was often sacrificed on the altar of conformity.
Drawing from Brené Brown's powerful distinction—"Fitting in is about becoming who you need to be to be accepted. Belonging doesn't require us to change who we are; it requires us to be who we are"
Kristy explores how religious systems can demand we amputate essential parts of ourselves to belong. Using the Brothers Grimm version of Cinderella as a striking metaphor, she describes how the stepsisters literally cut off toes to fit into the glass slipper, paralleling how believers are sometimes asked to cut away authentic pieces of themselves to fit religious expectations.
The seemingly trivial battles over jewelry, coffee drinking, and social media posts mask deeper control mechanisms that stifle critical thinking and personal expression. Kristy's powerful question—"How much about myself do you want me to lie about?"—challenges us to consider the spiritual cost of conformity.
Through her story, we witness the exhausting cycle of trying to change a system from within, only to discover that true freedom comes not from rebellion but from creating your own existence from scratch.
This conversation isn't about abandoning faith but finding authentic expression within it. Whether you've experienced spiritual abuse, felt like an outsider in religious spaces, or simply question whether you can be fully yourself while maintaining your faith, this episode offers healing perspectives on belonging without conforming. Join us as we explore how to embrace our whole selves—questions, uniqueness, and authentic expression—in our spiritual journeys.
"Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both."
So that's where I'm at now. I still have faith. There's still some of that loyalty and that upbringing my family is still all in the church, but they are so supportive of me. That's so wonderful that this is the path, the only path for me to be doing the ministry that God is calling me to do and show up for, because the church prevented me, wow. Wow. And there's really no other way, and I'm like, okay, so that's a God thing.
Christie Hodson:Absolutely.
Christie Hodson:Hello, my friends and fellow soul defenders, my name is Christie and this is Soul Bruises, a podcast devoted to taking a closer look at spiritual abuse. If this is your first time listening, I'm so glad you're here. I'm grateful for those returning.
Christie Hodson:This podcast exists to name, confront and address spiritual abuse out loud. Unfortunately, spiritual abuse will not disappear on its own. Eradicating spiritual abuse requires many consistent voices speaking up and refusing to tolerate or accept this harmful behavior. In the name of God. This podcast is my personal contribution to that effort and I'd love for you to join me.
Christie Hodson:This podcast will not shy away from hard conversations. I know the topic of spiritual abuse can stir up strong emotions, painful memories and even traumatic events. I cannot stress enough. Please prioritize your mental and emotional well-being. Even if you need to turn off this podcast, do it. You are not alone. I'm here to support you.
Christie Hodson:In the previous episode I spoke with my beautiful cousin, Pastor and Chaplain Kristy Hodson. This episode is a continuation of her powerful journey as she reflects on the difficulties of a tightly controlled religious environment. She shares the many challenges she faces as a critical thinker and quote-unquote rebel and the hurdles she faced as a female pastor in a patriarchal and sometimes misogynistic culture. Yet through every detour and obstacle, Kristy has remained deeply grounded in her faith. Her authenticity and vulnerability have opened the door for others to see that resilience and spiritual integrity can coexist. As you listen to the second part of Kristy's journey, you will be inspired as I was to move forward with a fierce and unshakable courage. Here's Kristy again picking up where we left off.
Kristy Hodson:And that shows me that even the most conservative of people, I may disagree with a lot of the things that they do or don't or how that represents, but that doesn't mean that I can just discredit them as like whack jobs.
Christie Hodson:Yeah because this is not a conservative, liberal issue, is it?
Kristy Hodson:No.
Christie Hodson:That always gets where everything gets put in a box. You know us versus them, liberal versus conservative, but some of the most beautiful people I've ever met are completely on the other end of the spectrum of me and yet there's so much love between us and so much acceptance.
Kristy Hodson:And it starts by being willing to have conversations. Yes, and let's have real conversations, let's critically think, let's know that we disagree with each other, and that doesn't stop us from seeing the other person's point.
Christie Hodson:I was just going to say it's about you know, learning how to see that in the person where they they're at, what brings them to their, what's their testimony, basically.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and one thing that helps me too is okay. So how does this view that you hold that is very different than my view. How does that help your faith? How does that impact your faith? What does that do to your faith? Does it make it stronger? Does it make it weaker? Does it? You know? How does that show up in your faith? Is it just peripheral and you're just hey, this is what I'm used to doing and it's like second nature and it's now more habit than not? Or is it, wow, because I have this super, let's say, conservative view on something, it helps me feel closer to God and I have that experience. Wow, what, what is it? Can you think critically about your own faith without saying, no, well, this is what the, this is the proof text. This is why I don't do it
Christie Hodson:So you talked about a box. You talked about or we could even consider it a cage or something these feelings of like not fitting in, but you want to belong to something you mentioned. You had mentioned a quote by Brene Brown who I know we both absolutely adore her work and it's so profound. She's a sociologist, researcher, storyteller, numerous books. But you mentioned a Brene Brown's quote about fitting in versus belonging. Could you share that quote with us?
Kristy Hodson:ou, this has been like eye-opening for me. So it's from her book the "Gifts of Imperfection. That's where I first came across it, I think, although it didn't hit me until I read Atlas of the Heart, which it was phrased differently, because, you know, sometimes you get knowledge and you're not ready for it yet.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kristy Hodson:"Fitting in is about assessing a situation and becoming who you need to be to be accepted. Belonging, on the other hand, doesn't require us to change who we are. It requires us to be who we are. Can you read that one more time? Fitting in is about assessing a situation and becoming who you need to be to be accepted. Belonging, on the other hand, doesn't require us to change who we are. It requires us to be who we are.
Christie Hodson:Wow oh so, hearing your story and understanding some of the pressures that you faced and the mold that you are expected to fit in. Um not necessarily you wanted to fit into, but being told how to act, being told what to wear, not to wear, what to say to meet those expectations, what kept you seeking the belonging within this particular organization? How did that distinction between being authentic and conforming play out in this experience?
Kristy Hodson:I think part of it was knowing I had wonderful friends and family who loved me when I didn't quote, unquote fit in right?. So they loved me whether I was wearing jewelries or had my tattoo out or advocated for someone or said something. Or they loved me when I was working in the radio industry and going out on Friday nights. There was that love there, right. So I knew there was nothing wrong with me as a person and it hurt my heart to see how trying to fit in to the church system was hurting other people. And I knew there was sexism. I knew there's like patriarchy out the wazoo, right. I knew that they wanted to control all these things about you that I didn't think were valid. I often talked about how they were trying to make tradition into doctrine and there's a difference between the two, especially where, depending on where you lived in the world, that might not even be an issue, so true.
Kristy Hodson:Right. So I thought to myself be the change you want to see. Yeah, I'm going to see what I can do to change it from the inside, especially if I'm stuck here because I can't go to the military, right, right. And it didn't seem as big of a problem when I was just sitting in the local pews as a church member, because I could be whoever I wanted to be. And if someone wants to talk bad of me, that's fine. You don't hold my livelihood in your hands, right.
Kristy Hodson:But it became a really big deal of me showing up authentically and being criticized for that when I was in ministry and employed by the church and they had my livelihood in their hands and I wanted to show hey, you can be a woman and be gifted, you can love your people. You don't have to be married with kids to be a pastor, right, there are things that you can say. There's the prophetic voice of speaking truth to power and not putting our heads in the sand and only talking about things that are not relevant, just because you don't want to make waves. And then I always loved when I preach, I try to find a new angle that is new for me because I'm not going to bore myself yeah, right, and I grew up in the church to find a new angle that is new for me because I'm not going to bore myself yeah, yeah Right, and I grew up in the church. So I've heard like I'm not going to preach the same sermon that everybody else is preaching. Yeah, there's got to be some new insight for today's reality, absolutely Right.
Kristy Hodson:So I'm like I need to try to change it from within, because there's nothing wrong with me being authentic. It's not about oh, such and such is a sin or not. It's just okay. I'm showing up and a lot of the issues that I had problems with were tradition and not doctrine. It's tradition to maybe not drink caffeine. It is not doctrine. And don't take away my coffee.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, Which is where it gets tricky, when you know I mean traditions start becoming doctrine, because that's like messing with God, you know, it's like
Kristy Hodson:Well, and I saw it so like I would bring my coffee to pastor's meetings.
Kristy Hodson:Other ones wouldn't, until maybe the next couple ones someone else would bring their in. I gave them permission to be authentic, yeah, and not go like run out in their car and hide it yeah like what does it say if you have to go and hide a piece of who you are? I was raised.
Kristy Hodson:It's what people see, it's not who you are, and that is exhausting
Christie Hodson:yeah yeah,
Kristy Hodson:you lose your sense of self
Christie Hodson:yeah, and it's even especially damaging when that starts, as because these kids are teenagers or just starting to figure out what they believe on their own. You know, maybe they're still under their parents, home and stuff, but yeah, it's so damaging
Kristy Hodson:well, and young people yeah, because I'm not young anymore, they see that hypocrisy.
Kristy Hodson:They'll know that you made your coffee at home,
Christie Hodson:yeah, yeah
Kristy Hodson:And that you know you're not bringing in or whatever you're doing, or you're you eat burgers when you go out, but you're you're telling everybody not.
Kristy Hodson:They know!
Christie Hodson:Yeah you know, I see such an exit of young people, particularly this denomination, but I'm sure it's happening in other denominations, because young people are just getting tired of hypocrisy and they realize they don't have to put up with it. Where our generation more struggled with the distorted loyalty or misplaced loyalty of like oh, I need to work within.
Kristy Hodson:or and there's people pleasing in there too. So, like if I left the church, what you know, there's always these prayers for our kids who left the church, or you know, what impact will that have on family members who work in the church? Or is it going to harm the memory of somebody?
Kristy Hodson:It's never about you, it's about someone else is going to be perceived too
Christie Hodson:Well and a lot of this is done even without taking that person to a coffee shop and just saying, "hey, I haven't seen you. Can you talk to me what's going on here? Because, instead of assuming that they've left God, that they left the denomination, which maybe they end up doing, but I think if you really cared about them as an individual, you would want to know what's going on in their mind, because it's a lot more than people think you know.
Kristy Hodson:And often it's because they're not allowed to ask questions Exactly.
Kristy Hodson:They're like I'm thinking critically about this, I have concerns, talk to me, explain it to me. Yeah, no, I can't explain it to you because I never learned how to explain it for myself.
Christie Hodson:Or they give pat answers.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and what are pat answers about? About making the person giving the answer feel comfortable, not the person they're talking to.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, because it's about them feeling comfortable, not the young person who really just wants an answer. And I'm not even talking about young people, I mean because, like for myself, I am constantly asking questions, even at 54 years old, and I believe you're similar too because I mean, that's what drives learning, that's what drives discovering, and, yeah, that's what drives a lot of our conversations.
Christie Hodson:Yes, yes
Kristy Hodson:Even if we come to different conclusions.
Christie Hodson:Totally
Kristy Hodson:Talking about it helps you process. Yeah, yeah, that's the idea I have, but that's not really what I think. That's just what I was told to think. Wait a second, let me examine that. And it's okay to examine it and say this I don't know, or maybe this just needs to be tweaked, or yeah, I wholeheartedly go for that, but you have to be able to examine yourself and your beliefs and how that measures up.
Christie Hodson:So you mentioned cognitive dissonance, and that's where your mind is trying to make sense of the things that don't align. So you either change your beliefs to fit those or your actions to basically reduce the discomfort. Because who wants to? I mean, like, our minds are powerful enough, but when they're like, when we're arguing with ourselves with something, it can be exhausting, it can and confusing, um, and even the double standards. You know where a principle or rules is unfairly applied. Um, you know, like your Elvis, uh, Janis Joplin thing here, how did you navigate these conflicting feelings? Because you definitely discovered them early on and then you probably have seen them over and over again in the system.
Christie Hodson:And I just want to say, before we go on, we're not attacking a system. I mean, sorry, we're not attacking a denomination. Every human being that is trying to figure out this world and figure out belief systems and stuff is messing this up. But sometimes systems they create a monster that controls people so that we can have answers to things. Rather than just controlling an environment, I mean creating an environment where we can just learn and learn and that sort of thing. So I just want to say neither of us are trying to dog any particular belief system.
Kristy Hodson:There is good and bad in all.
Christie Hodson:Yes.
Kristy Hodson:This is just the one that I grew up in. This is my experience, and had I grown up not on the East Coast, it might have been different.
Christie Hodson:Totally, totally
Kristy Hodson:East Coast of the US. Again, it's very you know. Your experience is based on you know where you live. What country you're in is based on you know where you live, what country you're in when you were grown up. All of that stuff factors in.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, so so your experiences is what you're sharing here, right, and I know people will relate to many of the different dynamics you're you're talking about. So again, how do you, how did you, navigate these conflicting feelings?
Kristy Hodson:I had a really supportive family that I could sometimes say, hey, this is not right. I think my mom totally agreed that them taking my music made no sense and it was not logical to accept Elvis but not Janis Joplin, right? So we talked about those things. We talked about it when I got suspended from high school because my roommate was smoking right. We talk about those things as I got older. My best friends I met in college and we're still really good friends now. Some of them are still part of the church system, some of them are not.
Kristy Hodson:But I have surrounded myself with people who are critical thinkers and who are compassionate and empathetic and who also tell me if I'm wrong and like no, I think you're really making too much of a deal about it. They were probably just having an off day, right? They'll tell me that or they'll say wow, why are you minimizing yourself? This is much more of an issue. Going through clinical pastoral education was a huge help. That helped me name what I was dealing with as a ministerial employee as abusive, because, again, that misguided, displaced loyalty I can't call them abusive. I can't use that word.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, and there there is something powerful about language and I know that abuse word can get. It can be really toxic for some people, but it can also identify like a really serious problem and yeah, I had.
Kristy Hodson:so one of the classes I took recently dealt with spiritual abuse, yeah, and church hurt and that kind of stuff, and they had said that you know you use that word spiritual abuse. Yes, people raise their hackles, but if you say church hurt, everyone's like, oh yeah, I'm totally, that happened to too, and so it's like you have to minimize it in order for people to understand it. Because what does it mean? When you call something abusive, that means something needs to change. Yeah, if you've been hurt, it could be an accident Like you stub your toe, you got hurt, someone abused you, someone intentionally or unintentionally caused you extreme harm and there should be consequences.
Christie Hodson:You know, this is probably coming from my own personal PTSD, from spiritual trauma, but from spiritual abuse. But I don't like to minimize it, because if we minimize it then we're just going to put it back in the closet where we want it to stay. And so when I hear church hurt, I hear, well, it's really not that bad. You know, let's just give it the hurt word, not the abuse word. So I absolutely know what you're saying, I absolutely know. You know what my mind's telling me. So it's really something we should just continue talking about.
Kristy Hodson:I definitely think so I know there was one situation where I had tried to bring up and I couch it as an ethical issue with a leader to their superior, and I was advocating for someone, and the leader I was talking to said you should know better than to bring this up without letting that person who's been victimized be cross-examined, yeah, by their victimizer, yeah, so I'm not even going to acknowledge what you said to me, yeah, yeah, and anything that you showed nothing, um, so I'm not even going to acknowledge that because you should know better. And that's when said I will never work for you. Yes there's your value system.
Kristy Hodson:I don't trust you yeah.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, and spiritual abuse is tricky because you know where someone can commit sexual abuse and there can be evidence and that person can go to jail. No one goes to jail with spiritual abuse and yet it can harm. I don't want to compare it to any of the other abuses, but it harms the soul of people and that's huge because of how we've so intertwined ourselves with our religion and the culture and everything around us. It becomes everything about us.
Kristy Hodson:Right, if you're someone who your church community was your extended family, right yeah, your church community was your extended family, right yeah. And you can, and you you know. Let's say you were upfront singing or sharing or doing something with kids and you suffered spiritual abuse by, especially, a leader in the church. You know whether it's an elder or a pastor or a group of people and it's not taken seriously. So there's no reconciliation, there's no ramifications, there's no recompense at all. You know how difficult it's going to be to walk into that church and then you become isolated from your faith community.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, that church and then you become isolated from your faith, community and often isolated from your faith, because one of the things that I've realized is, wow, I miss congregational singing.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yes, very much so.
Kristy Hodson:You know, I didn't realize that until I was in assisted living the other day and went to their church service. But yeah, it's like, oh yeah, I miss this. But so you've, just because you refuse to address the problem or you've been abused and you don't feel like anyone's going to take it seriously and there's not going to be any consequences.
Kristy Hodson:There's nothing done. You're the problem for even bringing it up, because now we feel like we have to deal with something. You've just lost your whole spiritual support team and it's going to influence how you relate to God. Did I deserve this? Do they deserve not to get off scott-free? Where's the consequences? Where's the justice? Do you not love me? It totally impacts someone's view of God themselves. Yeah, whatever support they have.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, it's like being you're estranged from your family
Christie Hodson:yeah, yeah, and I mean you said it earlier, you've said it several times, but the thing that's gotten you through so much is that you did have good support. People that don't have that good support or that are isolated, you know, it takes a lot of courage to even speak up and then to actually go towards somebody that's doing these wrong things.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, the bravery it takes to say I was hurt, I was abused, I was wronged. Yes, and put that into words in the atmosphere and not just think them in your head. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, and what usually happens? How dare you? You must be mistaken charismatic person over here. They would never do that to you because they're so nice. You must have misunderstood or you deserved it, because you're doing wrong.
Christie Hodson:It's all so damaging.
Christie Hodson:It's also damaging, yeah!
Kristy Hodson:And then there's that you know it's secondary trauma, and all of that because, over and over again, not being believed, not feeling that it's .undefined being resolved
Christie Hodson:And I'm even talking to somebody yourself who has a strong personality, a strong faith, a strong support system, a strong sense of who they are value system. And how hard has this been for you? Oh yeah, it's been incredibly hard, and yet you have so many things going for you that some people don't even have any of those.
Kristy Hodson:And I will be the first to say there is still bitterness and jadedness in me.
Christie Hodson:How can there not be when some of the language that you're told how dare you I mean talking to a church family member like this is language you hear from an enemy?
Kristy Hodson:So recently one of my friends I think it was the summer one of my friends got ordained at a big camp meeting and I went up to him earlier and said I love you so much, I'm so proud of you that they're finally acknowledging should have happened years ago. I cannot attend the service. And I went up to another friend who was visiting and be like hey, love you, I cannot sit here and watch a guy be ordained. Yeah, it hurts my heart, yeah, and I that's a boundary I have for myself that I will not let myself be there because it's too painful.
Christie Hodson:Well, you're showing up for yourself, you're showing up for the healing of your, the pain that you've experienced, yeah, which which was something that we should show up for each other, but if no one else is showing up for you, you have to take matters into your own hands and just heal whatever way possible.
Kristy Hodson:Right, and they totally got it.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, because they loved you. You know they love you and know who you are, know who you are. Yeah, so it ultimately sounded like you felt like there was a mold that you were expected to fit in, and you were most definitely did not. Would that be accurate?
Kristy Hodson:Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, I think it's funny. My dad likes to call me an independent old cuss.
Christie Hodson:Interesting!
Kristy Hodson:So the Hodson female cousins have always been um strong-willed. Yes, yes, you tell us what not to do. Um, so your sister-in-law and I I mean you tell us what not to do, and that's the best way to get us to do something. S o you tell me I'm not supposed to do this thing, but I see there's nothing wrong with it.
Kristy Hodson:Or tell me I can't, why not? and you have no real reason why I can't. I mean, if you want to tell me I can't jump off the empire states building, okay, I understand why that's not going to happen yes, so definitely, and it's again. So I need to fit a mold that someone else who doesn't know me created, because there is something wrong with who I am.
Christie Hodson:That's heavy.
Kristy Hodson:And how often do we tell that to kids growing up?
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, and not necessarily that bluntly, but like in so many different ways with so many different languages, and they are hearing that phrase right there, "they don't accept you as you are. They don't accept you as you are.
Kristy Hodson:I would wonder if that is a source of a lot of the social anxiety we see in our culture. What are people going to think when I walk in a room?
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I talk with a lot of young people and they would say one of the most social anxiety things when they go to church is for somebody to come up and say, oh, I've missed you, I haven't seen you around, which sounds very innocuous like great, somebody cared that I was here, that hasn't seen me a while. But that was not the way they were interpreting it. They were interpreting it as somebody saw that I wasn't here. That makes me a bad person like their mind went in the opposite direction.
Kristy Hodson:You missed me because I should have been here yes and I also say, okay, so you missed me, but you didn't reach out to me, but you didn't reach out to me yeah, yeah, until I came to where you are, or if you needed something, yeah.
Christie Hodson:Yeah.
Kristy Hodson:So you didn't really miss me,
Christie Hodson:yeah, and yet both parties, unless they are understanding each other. I mean, here's a person meaningly, I missed you and maybe they actually did. Yeah, but not realizing this. So much of what's going on in their brain is what I just mentioned.
Christie Hodson:So why do you think authentic belonging can be so transformative, especially for like, for these young people who are struggling with their faith because they're moving away from what their parents have said and like testing that? Why do you think belonging is so important and the concept of fitting in is so deceptive?
Kristy Hodson:Well, if you don't belong until you fit in, that means there's a problem with you and self hate. Yes, it helps no one. Yes, it helps no one. So if I have to change or modify or hide a piece of who I am, that means there's something wrong with it. Yeah, that's not quite the same of oh, I'm selective vulnerability. I think that's very different, where I may share something with you because I know you, but I won't share it with, like a work colleague that I've only known for a month, right, just because we haven't developed that bond.
Kristy Hodson:But if you're in a group of people that you're expecting to be bonded to, you know school friends, church friends, friends and immediately or very soon you find out that pieces that maybe you love about yourself, that help you express who you are and put that out in the world, are not welcome. Then you have to hide yourself.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, and you hide them from everybody. It's like you, especially if you're all in the same community. It's like who? Who is safe for me to be myself with?
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and so you get. It's that idea of code switching and masking and all of that. You're not allowed to be your authentic self because there's some, there is some judgment that if you are, you have less value as a person.
Christie Hodson:Yes, yes, and this is especially hard for, I would say, pastors, I would say pastors kids, pastors wives. I mean, the level of, you know, expectation of perfection can be so such that you can't beat yourself. Yeah.
Kristy Hodson:My, my grandmother, who was married. She married at a Catholic sailor who became an Adventist pastor, right, and she was raised Adventist but she never learned how to play the piano and that was often an expectation of the pastor's wife, because you're the unpaid labor and so she felt there was something wrong with her, that she wasn't living up to the expectations, that people were judging her because she couldn't do this basic thing. That was part of what all of them did. So you must be a crappy pastor's wife, yeah, because you can't play the piano.
Christie Hodson:That's heavy.
Kristy Hodson:And then you're doing that while you're trying to raise a family. You're not allowed to be yourself. Yeah, but yeah, maybe I can't play piano, but I love you know I can teach the infants. Yes, you know and hang out with them and do that, and so you're not able to lean into your strengths. And develop those, because those are wrong. So if that's the things that you love, then you're all wrong.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, and we're talking about every entity of a church, like the leaders, the quiet person in the corner, I mean everybody has something to share, but we're all muting each other's gifts because they don't fit.
Kristy Hodson:They don't fit some box that someone created that isn't, might not even be relevant to this century anymore.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so true, so true.
Christie Hodson:So in your attempts to belong, and despite being called a rebel, it sounds like you felt trapped, like conforming meant being caged.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, it was very much. If you don't fit into this thing and you've done this thing that we think is wrong, we're going to tell you what you need to change about yourself in order to still be a part of us. So I had a leader who didn't like something that was on my social media page. I had put up a picture. It was the anniversary of my friend's death. She died of cancer. She had a pink party, and so this was probably, you know, years before I was pastoring and went out and there all of us were all dressed up. I had big, dangly pink earrings, because it's a pink party before I was pastoring, and I put that up as my cover photo on my Facebook page, right, which everyone can see, because you can't make those private, right. All that, and I was proud of it. I was looking good, too right, and it was acknowledging my friend. She was in the photo, so I had it up for the whole month of October, right, and apparently it offended someone that there was a picture of me on the internet wearing earrings.
Kristy Hodson:This is like how trivial is this, right? It was enough. And I said, like anything, that I like coffee. Again, these are tradition things. These are not doctrine things, whatever trivial, and got a call from someone way high up, higher than my bosses, who was another woman, who said don't you think it's about a bit much? This is bothersome, you need to change this. And I said you know, this picture's up in honor of my friend who died. Well, the month's almost over. That's enough, isn't it
Christie Hodson:?
Kristy Hodson:So couldn't even say oh, thank you for sharing with me. I understand what it is.
Christie Hodson:Because it really wasn't about the earrings, was it? It was about your heart for your friend that you lost. Yeah, and that is a deep wound.
Kristy Hodson:And I mean it's still. I mourn her every day, absolutely, Absolutely. And what I was told is but you're not fitting this box of what you were like even before you were pastoring.
Kristy Hodson:Again, this is going to be a stumbling block for someone else which it doesn't matter. And who you are presenting to yourself is wrong, and so you need to take it down. And I actually said to her how much about myself do you want me to lie about? Oh, wow, because to me that's what it comes down to when you have to close off and hide pieces of yourself. You want me to lie to you about who I am? Yeah, and this is trivial stuff.
Christie Hodson:Yes, Well, trivial In my mind, but like it's.
Kristy Hodson:It goes back to the principle, right, totally so how much of who I am is so horrible that I need to lie to everyone about yeah? Yeah, not just you know, hey, I'm. I'm selectively vulnerable with certain people like how much do you want me to lie about yeah? And she really didn't have an answer um if she did, I don't remember, it didn't leave an impression. Yeah, wow, it was like.
Kristy Hodson:Well, just you know, think about it yeah and I'm just like and that's where I felt trapped. Yeah, I didn't think that I was doing anything wrong. I'm being authentically me. It's not something that's going to cost it shouldn't cost me my job, even in that high control religion, but they were wanting pieces of my soul. Yeah, I don't know how else to say that True, it's like who you are is unacceptable, yeah, yeah.
Christie Hodson:That's hugely heavy, yeah, yeah.
Kristy Hodson:Especially, if these little pieces of who you are are acceptable, then, oh my goodness, what if you knew all those dark secrets and intrusive thoughts that go on in my head? Then I'm 100%, unacceptable, and you're a representation of God?
Christie Hodson:We're supposed to be.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, okay.
Kristy Hodson:So that I felt very trapped to conform, and I think I did take off something about liking coffee. I'm like, I'm not taking down the photo, but I've been drinking coffee since I was two years old on my father's knee. , and it sounds so trivial when I say it out loud, or oh, she's just whining because she wants to be able to wear jewelry or drink coffee and those aren't big issues. But that's how minutely you needed to fit in and be controlled
Christie Hodson:So you mentioned that. You know we brought up the term rebel before and um, so the like, the other side of being conforming, is that you know supposedly you're rebelling against something. So you mentioned that that label didn't really bother you because you were very comfortable with your own research. You weren't rebelling, you were just being logical. Right, you had reasons why you believed certain things. You had no problem asking questions, you felt confident with these positions, but you had no desire and you had no desire to be pushed in to being conforming. And yet you, being seen as a rebel, seemed to be others response to your independent thinking. A lot of people assume rebellion is a bad thing and it's just for attention. Would you consider yourself a rebel or troublemaker or whatever, and what are your thoughts about rebellion?
Kristy Hodson:So I think for a long time I wore that with pride Because it did mean I fought for myself. And there are some things that I probably did just to be rebellious, especially when I was a teenager. Come on, that's like part of who you are. Right Today, I would not say that I'm a rebel. I think it's really interesting. I don't remember where I read this somewhere. But whether something is a rebellion or a revolution, yeah, depends who won.
Christie Hodson:Oh oh my goodness.
Kristy Hodson:So if the underdogs rebelled and lost yes, there's, they were rebels and rebellions, wow. If they won, then it was a revolution in their revolutionaries, wow. So who's writing the story?
Christie Hodson:Yes, that's right.
Kristy Hodson:And I was like BOOM!.
Christie Hodson:Yes, a huge light bulb moment right.
Kristy Hodson:And I don't remember. I think I was researching a sermon and I came across that, so that made it in there. And then, what more recently also I read this is when I was in Florida doing hospital chaplaincy, started reading the book "Untamed by Glennon Doyle . And I love her quote about this, so can I share this quote with you?
Christie Hodson:Absolutely, please do.
Kristy Hodson:So she says and this is a quote from the book this is a quote from Glennon Doyle, her book Untamed.
Kristy Hodson:Okay, "rebellion is as much a cage as obedience is Interesting. They both mean living in reaction to someone else's way instead of forging your own. Freedom is not being for or against an ideal, but creating your own existence from scratch. So I'm not a rebel from the box because there is no box. Yes, now I totally discount your idea that there is a box or a cage or whatever. You can't make those parameters for me.
Christie Hodson:You can't cage me in.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and that's been very healing for me.
Christie Hodson:Wow, when do you feel like that, finally, like that, that moment where you realize that where, where, when did that happen?
Kristy Hodson:Um, when I decided I was no longer in a fight with the system to be a part of it. Okay, okay. I'm like I'm done.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, okay, I'm like I'm done. Yeah, and it wasn't like I'm done because I'm tired of being called a rebel. It was like, oh no, I've been free all along. I just had to, you know, lay down the sword or whatever to fight the system.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, I no longer validate your definition.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, because I mean, if you validate their position of you being a rebel, you just, like the quote says, you're just as much um
Kristy Hodson:Trapped
Christie Hodson:Trapped as as, uh yeah because then you're late, you are the rebel and living up to that and it's expected.
Kristy Hodson:And, yes, some people are going to cherish that and some people are going to be like, oh, we need this energy because we want a revolutionary yes, right, um, but then you're in that mold yes, all the while they're, they're missing the gifts that you had to offer to the mission, or whatever in favor of.
Christie Hodson:Are you going to be a silent soldier for us? Are you going to fight the fight that we want to fight rather than than to, you know, to care about the mission of people, right, yeah?
Kristy Hodson:Or are you just going to bring attention to the fact that you're a rebel? Yes, and then it doesn't matter what you say, it's still about you. Yes, and it's still a distraction. Yes.
Christie Hodson:Yes.
Kristy Hodson:Wow So there's this idea of you're trapped. Either you're trapped being the goody yep, or you're trapped being the rebel, but you're trapped in what you've been assigned. Okay, right, and I think, regardless, there's this feeling of being trapped.
Kristy Hodson:And even people who are, who feel like they belong, yeah, and they're fitting in, um, sometimes, and I see this as like the person who told me take down your stuff, stuff, lie about who you are, quiet your voice, I feel like they, whether they know it or not, are just as trapped, I agree, and so, like there's this amazing quote in the book the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse that says "the one who perpetrates, the ones who perpetrate spiritual abuse on others, are just as trapped in their unhealthy belief and actions as those they knowingly or unknowingly abuse."
Kristy Hodson:Wow, because that person who told me that probably did not see what she was saying as harmful but as instructional. Right, this is constructive criticism. We're going to help you thrive in this system. That she, as a woman who has thrived. Well, it's kind of like the patriarchy women, right? Yeah, um, and so they're just just trapped, yeah, because they feel it's their calling, just like with my mom when she's like well, you don't want to be a stumbling block, so you don't do the things that you might that, even though you think they're okay, it might cause problems to others, so you don't do it.
Christie Hodson:So you're depriving yourself of joy and expression and you're just as trapped so somebody might be listening to this and saying, well, how dare Kristy say that I'm trapped because I don't feel trapped? What do you, what do you have to say to that person? Like, like you know, she might feel that way, but I certainly don't. I'm very comfortable where I'm at, I'm very comfortable in my beliefs, very comfortable saying what I say.
Christie Hodson:What do you have to say to that person?
Kristy Hodson:I think that's awesome you feel comfortable, but if what you are doing is in any way hurting someone else, yes, and you don't see a problem with that yeah then just look and see what box yeah, yeah maybe it's full of holes, maybe it's wide and as as much as you need, but but maybe how are how you treat other people.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, Because of your beliefs, if you're trying to make them fit in, how is that impacting other people? If you are hurting other people, maybe you're trapped. Maybe you're hurting other people and you absolutely know you're hurting other people and so you're not trapped. You are well aware that you are an abuser. Yes, right, yes, that's different. Yes, but I think people who unintentionally, especially unintentionally abuse like the hey, we missed you, why weren't you here? Or whatever it was, or oh, I only miss you for what you can do for me.
Christie Hodson:Yeah,
Kristy Hodson:Maybe Just look!
Christie Hodson:yes, And I think if we, if we know, if we know somebody, well, we know something lands poorly like we I mean just you you're in a family and you said something to one of your parents or your brother or your even your niece or nephew, and they do some some nonverbal thing that you're like, oh, wait a minute, that doesn't add up. It's kind of like you know, what you said might have not landed use is we're using what we think are well-meaning phrases, but because we don't know our family well enough, we don't know that we're actually harming them or there's not a space for us to speak up about it.
Kristy Hodson:Right or we weren't conditioned to think critically about it. But if we stop and be like, oh, thank you for sharing how that hurt, I can totally see where you're coming from. You know that wasn't my intention. Let me do better Instead of saying, well, that wasn't my intention and be done with it, because you can't think critically about yourself and your reactions and it's on you that you took it wrong.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, oh, wow.
Kristy Hodson:Do you get defensive?
Christie Hodson:Yeah, That's so easy to do, especially when you dig into your own little trench and say this is the way it is, untamed book. When she was talking about creating your own existence from scratch, do you think she's speaking about how you can carve out your own authentic path instead of facing the limitations and reactions of others? And how can we recognize whether we are living in reaction to external expectations rather than forging our own path?
Kristy Hodson:I think for a lot of us, the default is reaction, and I have a reactionary response Because it takes a lot of strength and practice to be curious and to explore, right, a lot of when you grow up learning, right. It's we need to memorize this and do all those things and especially when you're younger, it's developing those critical thinking skills. So, if you're not sure about something, and especially if it's a nerve that maybe you know about yourself, reactive is super common. It's kind of like our gut reaction, right, visual reaction. I'm just going to be reactive, and living reactively is exhausting.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, you are always on high alert. Just look out your window at the people you know in all levels of everything in this world, right, yeah, what does it look like when you have a reactionary boss and you're walking on eggshells every day? Yeah, what does it look like when you have a reactionary leader where you're going to be punished for doing what might be the right thing just because it wasn't how they wanted to do it, or they're getting the credit for what you do, right? There's all of those things and so, um, yeah, you're always on, you're always looking over your shoulder. What is going to be that? You're waiting for that other shoe to drop.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, and there's... There's no freedom in that. No, there's um you, you. You can feel like you're caged in by what others want you to do, or in reaction to what others want you to do, and it's like there's no place to go that you can relax.
Kristy Hodson:No. And what do you need for creativity, relaxation? What do you need to be able to stop and think and figure out what you think and what you believe. And you need a calm nervous system for that. Yeah, yeah.
Christie Hodson:Peace. Yeah To be you. So how did you break free to find your own authentic way, and you kind of expressed it a little bit in the beginning. But can you share a little more about that?
Kristy Hodson:Well, I'm still finding it. You're still a work in progress. I'm still a work in progress and probably will be until I take my last breath.
Christie Hodson:I thought you were self-actualized.
Kristy Hodson:No, I'm pretty self-aware, but I'm self-aware of those things that I'm critical about in my life, right.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, well, that's huge yeah.
Kristy Hodson:But I think for me, I have an amazingly supportive family and friends and they want me to flourish, even if it means stepping outside the box, like my mom, this pastor I keep going back to her. This pastor's kid, who you know was raised with your faith is your salvation, is coming to my ordination in October, planning her life around. That, knowing it makes me apostate in the church.
Christie Hodson:Wow, wow
Kristy Hodson:Right? Super supportive. Yeah, I still have a toe in that high control religion. Like I said, I still have a membership there in the church I visited. That's where my family is, the majority of my, so my immediate family, all of them are still a part of that high control religious system. Many of my extended family are, or on different levels, my friends. I have great respect for many of my pastor friends that were once my colleagues that are there and you know, and sometimes they allow me to teach or give a course or a workshop or whatever, and I'm so grateful.
Kristy Hodson:But also because of the way that Seventh-day Adventism is as a high-control religion, it has its own culture. We have our own foods. Wow, like we have our own foods. If anybody knows what Special K-loaf is, it's yummy, it's fantastic. Yes, even non-Adventists like it. Yeah.
Kristy Hodson:So there's our own culture, there's our own foods. We have our own like language code of what things are.
Christie Hodson:Hospitals. You know, there's hospital systems, universities.
Kristy Hodson:Like I said, I did all of my schooling, including one of my master's, from Adventist institutions and I also have not found yet a local in my neighborhood spiritual community that I feel comfortable in, that I feel at home in trying to figure out what that looks like, what's important to me because I can guarantee you that no denomination or church is going to 100% align with what I believe, because I'm still figuring some things out too right. So what hits most with my values, where is aligned with those things that I'm not willing to compromise on?
Kristy Hodson:okay right, because not all of my faith is laid lived out in a congregation, right, um so, trying to find that home? I don't know right now. That home is my friends yeah, okay, and my family and that I talk to and I do feel comfortable at when I go to church with my parents, but that's also a congregation that knows me, yeah.
Christie Hodson:That's huge element, right there yeah. But it's a huge element to have a spiritual community too, though, and that should never be minimized. You know that's a powerful thing, yeah, um, but again, that doesn't have to be within four walls, you know.
Christie Hodson:So expressing rebellion can trigger that release of dopamine, can't it? But it and it does.
Kristy Hodson:It feels empowering. Yes, totally, Very much. It's like I now have control.
Christie Hodson:Yes, yes.
Christie Hodson:It's like, yeah, so when someone does stand up against rules or the normalcy of something, especially if it's someone that they believe is unfair, it can trigger something more. You might feel this rush of adrenaline.
Kristy Hodson:Yep, and it can be validating too right.
Christie Hodson:Yes, yeah.
Kristy Hodson:That's why sometimes people are like, oh well, you're virtue signaling, right, because it's validating. You've got people praising you for being brave and stepping out and speaking truth to power. I know, like when George Floyd and he was murdered and I was saying Black Lives Matter, I had some of my Black colleagues who didn't feel comfortable saying that in some of their churches because they were worried about the blowback, even though if they believed it right. So they were thankful that I could say it in my church. I'm like, oh, that feels validating. I'm like, well, wait a second. Yeah, should I be looking at it that way? I can feel sad. Yeah, um, but it really says nothing about my value. Yeah, and I don't need to be proud of myself and put my pride there.
Kristy Hodson:That's just one other thing,
Christie Hodson:Because rebellion can definitely you can get to that place of like focusing it on you
Kristy Hodson:and it becomes us and them or me against the world.
Christie Hodson:Yes, and yeah, and everybody loses, everybody loses that.
Christie Hodson:But how might rebellion feel like it.... there's a sense of freedom? You feel that freedom, but it t
Kristy Hodson:Ya because then you spend all your energy, pushing back And you're pushing back from the same box, trying to make it bigger so you can fit in. So you You can say, "ey, look, no, I'm okay. It didn't you know. In my experience, it didn't offer me the opportunity to explore what else is out there, learn where I might actually belong, because I'm too busy fighting against this thing where I don't belong and focusing all of my energy there. It's like you're constantly protesting. If you just look at what's happening in the world today, you're constantly protesting, you're constantly advocating, but you're not filling yourself, you're not taking care of yourself, You're not seeing other areas where change can happen, where you can strengthen your inner being. It's always fight, yeah, yeah, and that's unsustainable, yeah, unsustainable for sure. Not telling people not to protest. Well, yeah, just take care of yourself and look out for each other.
Christie Hodson:Yes, exactly. Well, what advice would you give someone who feels stuck in that cycle of reacting to others, whether through rebellion or obedience, and wants to move forward toward that freedom?
Kristy Hodson:So I think it comes with experimenting to learn about yourself again. So if all your reactions are about what someone else is doing, right, so you do something to me and I'm going to push back against that, whatever it is. A you're constantly thinking about negativity because oh my goodness, they're saying this again. You know I become very critical, right. And then you're focused on what you don't believe and what is not good that you have forgotten to look into. Well, not good that you have forgotten to look into. Well, what do I believe? What have I I cut off to fit ? What parts of me were closed down? I need to relearn about myself. So experiment, try different faith practices, without judgment or thinking that, well, if I try this, I have to always do this and adopt it as my own right. I'm talking about appreciation, not appropriation.
Kristy Hodson:okay to be picky about what works for you. You can refuse to listen to sermons or read books by people who you know is going to trigger you. Like I said, I do not go to ordination services because it is not healthy for my state of mind. Yeah,? A t least in that faith tradition. Yeah, yeah. So I know that. I know there's people who I probably don't want to hang out with you right now because I'm finding myself irreactionary reactionary or your messages I find very disturbing. So I don't. So
Kristy Hodson:it's okay to curate what you allow yourself access to, especially as you're still learning. I know it's important as well to kind of learn from and be exposed to people you disagree with. Yeah Right, and. But you've got to get yourself better first before you can do that, because otherwise you're not going to be able to hear oh, this is the argument they're saying. I want to understand them better. You're just going to constantly be pushing back, so learn what fills you, yeah and learn not to be reactive yourself.
Christie Hodson:I mean, I know for me there's a particular person that I can't learn. I don't know how to communicate with this person. I've tried. This person, I feel like, has hurt people I love and I'm still healing from that pain that they hurt someone I love. So much so that every time I think about talking to that person, who I'd love to sit down and have a conversation with, but I don't know if I am ready and healed in not being able to react, because I know once I react, you're not getting anywhere, you're not moving forward, and then you can cause more problems just by even having that conversation. So it's huge!
Kristy Hodson:So well, and and don't bypass what you're going through, because I could say, well, Christie, just forgive them, yeah, yeah, does that fix anything? Nope, it sounds good, though, you know. Does it make you maybe feel guilty that you don't, or be like, oh well, am I supposed to just anybody be a doormat? I'm not supposed to listen to my feelings anymore. Forgiveness isn't about them, it's about us, right? So don't just tell me to forgive. And forgiveness also does not mean restoration of relationship, right, right. So don't bypass your body and what it's telling you and your emotions. Bypass your body and what it's telling you and your emotions, and that's part of the healing, because fitting in asks you to bypass yourself.
Christie Hodson:Wow, I know you brought up the term bypass. What do you mean by that? I mean, I'd heard this term like spiritual bypassing. Is it kind of a similar thing? Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, so you're kind of taking a roundabout.
Kristy Hodson:I'm not going to deal with this feeling. I'm going to minimize it, I'm going to gaslight myself, or it's those trite phrases. So I'm going to tell you that God must have needed another angel and that's why your mom died. So I feel better. And you don't sit with your feelings, because it makes me uncomfortable when you're sad. Yeah, so I'm just going to bypass all of that.
Christie Hodson:It seems like a lot of bypassing happens around people that are in pain, like why is that Is the person that's bypassing? They're just uncomfortable with that feeling and they don't want to feel uncomfortable, so they say something that makes them feel better and yet it lands really poorly in the other person.
Kristy Hodson:We're not taught how to be with people in pain Because we're not taught to even acknowledge our own pain half the time. Right, yeah, especially if you were raised in a tradition that feelings are wrong, you can't trust your feelings. So, and you know God came and god loves and jesus loves us, so we need to be happy, happy all the time.
Kristy Hodson:I think that was a song when I was happy, happy all the time, and you know you're gonna choose joy and you're not gonna let anything phase you. So and if you're depressed because you're not praying enough, right all these bad things. So we're not taught how to have, how to acknowledge even our heart emotions yeah, yeah which all of us have, yeah, yeah.
Kristy Hodson:And if I can't handle it in me and I see it in you, yeah, and you're brave enough, you know. Let's say you were to start crying and if I hand you a tissue, I'm saying wipe those, you're making me uncomfortable. You know, boys, don't cry right, buck up, be a man. We see what happens when we don't teach young boys how to have emotions.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, yeah, and we wonder why they're angry.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, yeah, because that emotion is still very much inside of them. It just doesn't know how to get out in a healthy way. You need to be stoic too. You make me uncomfortable and so I'm going to shut you down. Wow, and then you're going to go be in your emotions in your room, thinking that something's wrong with you, and you're isolated, when often what exactly we need is community. It's just somebody to sit there.
Christie Hodson:Yes, which is why church can be such a powerful thing. Yeah. So there's another term that I heard spiritual rationalization. Are those the same thing? What does that mean?
Kristy Hodson:So those are quite similar. Okay, because it's again using spirituality and saying so it'd be like a good example. I like for spiritual rationalization is let's say, someone was abused, right, but maybe that's what God needed to happen to them for them to get a close relationship, right, because God's in charge of everything and if God didn't intervene to stop it, so maybe that's what God needed to do. Or there's this leader who is, you know, this is what God has for them, so God must have it in God's plan for this to happen.
Kristy Hodson:So, yeah, it's amazing. Wow, yeah. It's like using your faith or your spiritual beliefs to justify something that you know isn't right, that you know is off, so you're not facing the real issue. You kind of twist your beliefs to make yourself feel better about the situation. Wow, okay, so this is god's will. This is going to be part of their spiritual growth. God gave you cancer because you need to have stronger faith.
Christie Hodson:That's heavy yeah, that's heavy. It's sort of like making excuses, isn't it?
Kristy Hodson:yeah, so then you don't have to face the hard facts that maybe I don't know yeah that those are really hard words for a believer to say yeah, what does it mean if this isn't God's plan?
Christie Hodson:yeah, when you have to sit in uncertainty of things and don't know where it's going. We definitely feel better if we can either say something to make ourselves feel better and this goes back to the bypassing. There's this term called toxic positivity. Oh, yes, and positivity is such a great thing. So how can positivity be toxic?
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, it's not admitting reality.
Christie Hodson:Yeah.
Kristy Hodson:Right, let me put a positive spin on everything.
Christie Hodson:Because you can't be happy, happy, happy all the time, right, yeah, okay.
Kristy Hodson:And what does that say about someone who feels like they trust you? They're feeling vulnerable. Yeah, hey look, I just got in this wicked car accident, right, so we're not going to make it too extreme. I just got in this wicked car accident. I broke my arm and I'm going to be in a cast for a month. I'm not going to be able to work. Well, at least you didn't break your neck at least, at least it's at least or well, you survived. Yay, thank you. God saved my life.
Christie Hodson:Wow, right, it doesn't acknowledge that there is still pain there yeah, not that positivity is a bad thing, but but that you're focused on that instead of the pain that they're actually experiencing right there. You've abandoned them in their pain.
Kristy Hodson:Well, it's the idea that it has to be one or the other. We were talking about this the other night that we can hold tension of two things that maybe sound like they should be opposites, that maybe sound like they should be opposites. I can be glad that I survived the car accident, but also be really sad about the long healing process.
Christie Hodson:And both those things can be true, we actually give more space for the. You know, let's look at the bright side of this rather than, you know, sitting with somebody in their pain. Okay, there was something I wanted to get back to on the fitting in cages aspect. You stated that you tried to fit yourself into other people's boxes and cages and that you would be rebelling against yourself. What did you mean by that? Like fitting into their cages would be rebelling against yourself. What did you mean by that? Like fitting into their cages would be rebelling against yourself. Can you like expand on that a little more?
Kristy Hodson:Yeah. So it goes back to that idea of how much about myself do I need to lie about right? And so I think of Cinderella and the. You know the Brothers Grimm story, the real one, where their stepsisters, in order to get their foot to fit into the slipper, they literally cut off like a toe or a heel, or they literally cut off pieces of their body to fit into the slipper in order to get the reward of being this princess.
Christie Hodson:This is a nursery rhyme, right.
Kristy Hodson:It's a fairy tale.
Christie Hodson:Oh my goodness, they're supposed to be wonderful stories, but this is very profound, so like actually cut off there. This is not the Disney version. Okay, this is the sanitized one.
Kristy Hodson:This is the Brothers Grimm real life lessons here.
Christie Hodson:Okay.
Kristy Hodson:And so thinking of it like that yeah, and there's this religious box. What part of yourself is this religious box asking you to amputate? Shoot, instead of just saying, oh, I need to fit in this box, I need to squeeze myself in. Yeah, what part of you are you being asked to amputate?
Christie Hodson:Yeah, Right, yeah, because obviously for you you felt like you getting in the box wasn't possible without you amputating something.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah.
Christie Hodson:But you weren't about to amputate anything, right?
Kristy Hodson:Pieces of myself that they felt or the ways that I showed up. Even and a big part of my personality is I show up for my friends. I am there, I show up for my friends, I am there, and so for them it comes down to. I was being asked that anything that didn't fit into the most conservative aspects of that you know their tradition, regardless of whether it was doctrinal or not right.
Kristy Hodson:I was being asked that that was what I needed to cut off and hide. So I was asked to make myself smaller, quieter and more submissive. Wow, my parents never taught me my place. Yes, so I've never learned it. Yes, quieter that usually. I've grown into my voice now, because bullying and fitting into the box makes you quieter. Right, girls, don't sound too smart. You don't want to intimidate. You know? Um submissive, I've never been submissive. Yes, the only thing I'm submissive to is my cat?
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and so they. It's like molding me into their image.
Christie Hodson:I'm so grateful your parents gave you the freedom to be who you were. That's such an integral part of anybody's life, but that, what a gift they gave you. What a gift they gave you.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, I'm very fortunate and it's interesting because for half of my childhood I didn't live with them because I went. I was with my grandparents for a year in eighth grade, I went to boarding school, I went to high school. I saw them some, but even though I didn't live with them and I moved out of their house when I was 13 and didn't move back in until I was in my 30s for something you know a short time, I still always felt their support and their presence. Yeah, the, if you ever need, I will never not have a roof over my head or food in my belly. Yeah, because of my family and friends.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, Even with the phrases that you know you would get from time to time that were from their own trauma and stuff too, but because that you knew that they had your back. Why do you think high-controlled religions have this huge desire to mold people in their own image?
Kristy Hodson:There's a sense of power that comes from feeling that you are right or that you have the capital T truth, right. It makes people feel like there's only one way that can be allowed. So this is kind of where you're trapped in the box too, because there's only one way that can be allowed. So this is kind of where you're trapped in the box, too, because there's only one way that can be allowed. And so some feel that it's their spiritual calling, it's my job to save you, right, I need to save you from yourself, or I need to defend God, right, exactly.
Kristy Hodson:Some do it because they're afraid, if they don't, god will judge them. So what if I didn't live up to whatever god had for me to do? And, like you see that too, or they want to do, you have to be controlled. So then you won't be subject to god's harsh judgments, because if god is just, then everything that happens to you you deserve, and you'll see this when there's flooding or tornadoes Like, well, god did that because there was the sinlessness that was happening.
Kristy Hodson:So that's God's retribution, and so if they want to prevent that happening to them, they need to stay tight in this spot.
Christie Hodson:It's kind of like that twisted concept of prosperity gospel where if you do all these wonderful things, god will bless you, but it's almost the opposite of like you mess up and God's gonna punish you.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and you see this in the Israelites, right, they had all these laws because they wanted to avoid. They wanted to make sure they were in line with God and avoid going back into captivity. It was protection. It wasn't meant to be malicious and cruel, but it gets that way. When you start legislating and saying, okay, if it's not this, then you're cut off. Wow.
Christie Hodson:Wow, well, you had mentioned that. You sometimes feel like social anxiety around the question what do they want me to be, or what do I need to do to fit in? It sounds like you felt like people wouldn't accept you for who you are, so you had to cut off parts of you to belong. I know that sounds graphic, but there's no other way to say. It is profoundly, you know. I mean, I like the Disney version of Cinderella but and I have to be honest, I'd never heard the Brothers Grimm, but how profound that version is in explaining this.
Christie Hodson:So do you think many people realize how deep these attacks can attack people's core identity? Do you think that they even realize these pressures go beyond just getting people to conform or they actually attack the core of the person themselves? How did you see this affecting you?
Kristy Hodson:Oh yeah, I definitely think that it gets to the core of your identity, because if there's these pieces of yourself that are needing to be cut off, that are that should be rejected because they're not good enough, then that means you are not good enough, because this is how you were created to be. God made you this way, so there's something wrong with the core of who you are, and so I think a lot of people I think that's quite where a lot of social anxiety comes from. I know, I've seen it in myself.
Kristy Hodson:When I walk into a room, what do they want me to be? Who do they want me to be? What do I need to look like? What do I need to say? And so I'll come in a room and I'll observe what do I need to be like to fit in?
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, there was someone that was presenting a workshop and I was amazed at the confidence with which they carried their body. I do not have that because I'm so focused on okay, am I doing the right thing? Am I sitting the right way? What do I need to say or not say, how I show up? What's that going to impact? If they like me, do I need them to like me, but then, and you know, when we don't even think, then they're not even liking me. They're liking the image that I'm giving them of who I am right.
Kristy Hodson:And so I think it really does impact your day-to-day. It's not just a oh, this is only going to happen once a week at church. This is going to. It has long-lasting ramifications and I've seen it go through generations. It's one of those generational things because if you went through this, you're going to want to protect your kids from it or show them how to show up, and it just goes down and down and down.
Christie Hodson:That's got to conjure up some other emotions other than anxiety. Can you name any of those other emotions that you actually might feel?
Kristy Hodson:So, like right now, like I said, I still have a lot of bitterness.
Kristy Hodson:I have sadness because there was this community that, even though at times it was uncomfortable, there were times where it was beautiful, right and very special, and will I ever get that piece of it again? There's anger because of it didn't have to be this way, right. Silly people care about power, who want to put people down, make arbitrary rules. It just doesn't have to be this way, right. So I have a lot of anger in that, because they don't even care that they've hurt people. Yeah, they feel entitled and shame on you for feeling hurt, right. And frustration, especially when I see other young girls being asked to ignore their likes, their dislikes, their talents, because they need to minimize themselves to make themselves feel more palatable.
Christie Hodson:You have to figure out which toe it's that painful. You have to figure out what part of yourself you're going to take off to and at what cost, because we know that amputating something causes bleeding. And sometimes there's infections and sometimes you know we needed that leg, but now we don't have it. So we our gifts get. That's such a powerful, even though it's so graphic, it's such a powerful object,
Kristy Hodson:Metaphor yeah.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, metaphor.
Kristy Hodson:Well, and I mean yes, sometimes you do need to cut things off that are rotten, yep, In order to let everything else grow.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, and that's on their own little self-growing aspect. Yeah.
Kristy Hodson:Right. So that may mean you need to step away from what is unhealthy Interesting. Yes, versus, hey, I'm asking you to cut off a healthy piece of you. Yeah, because you know what? You don't fit into these shoes and you should fit in these shoes. So you need to cut off a toe or two, instead of saying why don't we just get bigger shoes? Wow.
Christie Hodson:That reminds me of a hospital or a nursing term called nosocomial infections, where you get these infections in the hospital itself and I that just hit me as you're talking about that Cause sometimes we get these nosocomial infections being in supposedly a hospital for sinners and it's just it's. It's sad.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and then I get people who tell me I shouldn't be mad, I shouldn't be angry, you know, because everything's going to work together for good.
Christie Hodson:But yeah, that's scripture. Yeah. That's scripture Everything's going to work together for good.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, but what does that mean? Does that mean everything's going to work together for me right now for good, right? Does that mean at the end of time, everything will work together for good?
Christie Hodson:We don't have privy to that right.
Kristy Hodson:Does it mean it'll work together for good? For me, who's good? Right, There's all these things, and so it's not selfish or sinful to trust your emotions or to have strong emotions. I think that's just a part of who we are and we shouldn't dismiss them. Right, you know there's this big. You know, for years, women were taught you can't be angry, Right, but what is anger? It's showing you that something's violates a violation,
Christie Hodson:yeah yeah, it's a self.
Christie Hodson:It protects you ,
Kristy Hodson:yeah, and if you constantly shut that down, shut that down, shut that down, then you lose.
Christie Hodson:You're kind of like numb to being violated, yeah you let the guard um leave the, leave the uh, leave the watch station.
Kristy Hodson:Yes, yeah, because what does it matter?
Kristy Hodson:Nothing's going to change, so I guess yeah, we're just going to learn to live with it,
Christie Hodson:And that's when it really gets dangerous for the individual, both emotionally and physically yeah, wow, and I think so.
Kristy Hodson:If something's not going to be changed, then, and if we're praying God fixed the situation and God doesn't fix it, then maybe then we think, oh well, that's what God, that's how God meant it to be. So God means for our churches to be spiritually abusive places, right, yeah, whoa.
Kristy Hodson:Then you're dealing with these emotions and once you really confront them, you know that something has to change yeah you know, because you either have to confront the abusive people or the abusive systems or bring attention to it, like what you're doing on your podcast, right, or you change.
Kristy Hodson:You have to change them. So maybe it's people leaving because this dysfunctional system is serving somebody Otherwise it would have been changed and confronted, right? Yeah, if all it does is cause chaos, hopefully that system will then be corrected. But it's serving someone, so if it's serving a purpose, there's no desire to change it. Well then, okay, so then let's look at that again. So if doubts creep in, because there's this functional system that's flourishing, so then maybe God ordained this faith system.
Kristy Hodson:That's what I've been told. You know, God wanted this denomination to go forward. There was prophets, there was all this other kind of stuff, but it needs an overhaul. But how can I? But this is what God wanted. How much credit do we give to the people and the humans who are not living up to that ordination of God for this faith? And so I need to be loyal to that, because that's what God ordained. Like it's messy!
Christie Hodson:Oh it is, it is, and I think the cure is humility amongst it all. I mean, I don't know that you can actually reach to a place of strong faith without humility, because we will constantly get in each other's way and we will constantly say you know, we know better. Get in each other's way and we will constantly say you know, we know better. Um, so I guess that would be one place I I have to start for myself is just get over myself.
Kristy Hodson:You know, not let go of myself, but like I don't know everything, right and one of the biggest challenges is this us and them mentality, right, yes, and you have this religious egoism and then you're not willing to listen, you're not willing to see people it's us and them and you start dehumanizing people and it just all goes downhill from there.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, almost an earthly battle, rather than like let's just go around and see how each person first of all get to know each other and then like how can I help your needs and how can you help the other person's needs? So someone like has these emotional feelings that that don't, that they don't belong because they choose to challenge the status quo and dare to access critical thinking, like you just had the...
Kristy Hodson:Pleasure of experiencing
Christie Hodson:yes, yes, that's a good way of putting it.
Christie Hodson:And you were met with resistance in form of spiritual bypassing, spiritual rationalization, outright, outright spiritual abuse, outright emotional abuse, verbal, whatever a lot. Their emotions are minimized, your emotions are minimized. There's a resistance to your independent thinking. It's met with excuses why they respond.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah. So, like it's, either you shun, like you can't be a part of this community, or we're gonna look at you sideways and no one's gonna sit with you at the lunch table. Um, maybe you're marginalized, or um, you're threatening the organization, right, yeah, or they're gonna be very condescending to you. Oh silly you. You don't know how the world works, right, and it's hard as an adult. And it's hard for a young person, right? Because we want to be accepted for who you are.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, so could you either speak to that young person that was you at one point or where you're at now, or maybe a little bit of both.
Kristy Hodson:I want to say that learning how to trust yourself and stand up for yourself, and knowing your core values and letting that be your lead is huge because it's going to be costly.
Kristy Hodson:Regardless of what those core values are, there's going to be someone who doesn't agree with you or who wants to hold power over you, or you're going to be disrupting someone's system, sure. So what are you again? What are you willing to compromise on? Because to be in community with other people, there's going to be some compromises, right? What are you willing to compromise on what is absolutely not? Um, sometimes it is justified to shun people or not associate, like there are people, there are speakers that I refuse to go listen to because what they have said in the past is very toxic, and I refuse to give my money to support them or give them my count in their streams. That's not going to happen.
Kristy Hodson:And learning to trust your own emotion, giving yourself space for anger, for sadness, for passion without judgment Wow. Passion without judgment, wow. No, I shouldn't be angry, doesn't matter if you should be angry or not, you are. What does it mean to lean into that acceptance? I think a lot of people will say and we hear this well, you know, I went through the same thing. You went through and I survived. Why can't you just buck up?
Christie Hodson:Right, I mean that feels like you know they might be doing that for your own good, but it's so damaging because everybody's experience is different.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, yeah, it was this unspoken thing in my family. You know. Yeah, we know the church system is broken. We know that they abuse emotionally, abuse pastors and all of that and you have to hit these things. But it's kind of unspoken. Yep, we know these happen, we just have to live with it. Right? I heard stories growing up of spiritual abuse in the family, but we didn't call it that, they were just funny anecdotes. A spiritual abuse in the family, but we didn't call it that, they were just funny anecdotes. So my grandmother was brought before the church board for discipline and to be kicked out of the church for wearing lipstick when she was 16 years old.
Kristy Hodson:What Right it didn't go through because I guess, whoever this person who made it their mission to be like oh, you're not fitting in this box, you're bringing too much attention to yourself, you make me uncomfortable, you're going to sin, so I need to kick you out, yeah, 16. 16 years old, ouch. Right Ouch.
Kristy Hodson:You know, we know. My grandfather was cheated out of money. People would. It was time for him to raise, then a different department would then take over his payroll so he wouldn't get his raise right. These are stories we heard, but we still kept the faith, because this is the organization that has the truth.
Kristy Hodson:And you just well, you laugh off your trauma yeah because no one's gonna change it, because if you don't laugh, you're gonna cry, right yeah and so they went through that all and they had it, maybe much harder than you or as hard as you have, but you just stayed because there's no other. You know why would you make a different choice?
Christie Hodson:Do you feel like there's this change in our environment where our generation is kind of in between but like the younger generation is, like you know I'm just fed up kind of in between but like the younger generation is, like you know, I'm I'm just fed up and you know we're always wondering why kids are leaving church.? But I mean, I think they're just like. I've just had enough, I'm not going to take this anymore,
Kristy Hodson:Right, it's the wait a second. I don't have to endure this, I don't have to. I do not have to sit here and abuse be abused. I do not have to be a doormat. I do not have to sit and listen to harmful messages from charismatic people. Yeah.
Christie Hodson:Which is a double hardship, because church can be so powerful place for support, powerful place for like. If people, if their house burns down, everybody comes together and, you know, feeds them. Or someone had a funeral and you know you, you go mow the lawn or whatever people's needs are, but like, but again, at what cost? You know the kids are. I think a lot of the young people are just saying it's not worth it, it's not worth it.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, I have other options.
Christie Hodson:Yeah. Yeah, think how powerful that is to know that you have other options, yeah, and yet that scene is a threat, rather than like they're trying to tell us something and we're not listening, right? Yeah. Yeah, Sorry, I just get passionate about young people because I just there's part of me that's still that teenager that has some of the feelings that you've expressed. I mean, I think we all, we all have these feelings that we haven't resolved. But I think
Kristy Hodson:Well, also you're a mother, that yeah.
Kristy Hodson:I mean, I'm an. I'm not a mother, but I'm an aunt. And seeing my niece, yes, yeah, that has also spurred me on. Yes, I was like no wait. I need to help, empower her and be like, oh yeah, it's okay to call that out and say, no, that's not okay. Yeah, even if you can't change it, there's power in calling it out, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm there's power in calling it out.
Christie Hodson:There's certainly a way of isolating our young people into silos of thought early right. I mean, I think another name for that would be indoctrination. How did you as a young person process these painful emotions and how do you process them now? How has that impacted your faith and spiritual life? Do we spend time in spiritual settings to learn how to process these emotions or skeptical thoughts?
Kristy Hodson:I think it really depends on what that indoctrination is right. So I was indoctrinated in the faith tradition that was about knowledge and knowing all the right verses and the right answers. It was not about experiential. I took a personality thing for a vocational assessment and they said, for someone who does clergy, I am so down the bell curve of mystical experiences that most clergy have and it just seemed weird because I was so out of. But it was like, oh yeah, it's because we weren't taught about this. What do you mean by mystical?
Kristy Hodson:So whether it is just feeling like you've heard from God in prayer or in visions or dreams or something like that, that just was not a part of my upbringing Like, no, maybe you can feel at peace in nature, or maybe I feel you know an instinct to do something and I'll hear that from God, but there's not a oh. I just God just gave me a dream about something that was not a part of what it. You know they would take you to the shrink.
Christie Hodson:And yet it can be sometimes said at the pulpit and gotten away with. You know.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and so it's okay. You're only allowed to experience your faith in one way, yeah, yeah, and they to experience your faith in one way, yeah, um, yeah, and they. It's just to me it comes down to it was knowledge over emotions, not both.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, so it wasn't the experiential faith because, um, you know you start sharing, you might start sharing some of these emotional experiences, but they're certainly cut off because you know it tends to be the people that are in authority that have that special connection with God and you can't have that experience. But I mean, I disagree with that. I think the Lord reaches us, reaches a young child, you know. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of play on the power and authority of a spiritual figure that they can say I have this vision, this is what it means, but you can't Right or the idea that the prayers of someone in authority are more powerful than yours.
Kristy Hodson:Yes, what, yeah, yeah, there's no hierarchy like that in my understanding. Yeah, I think of it too. So you know, it would be like for me. Let's pick a country on the map. Let's say Scotland right, I study about Scotland, I read about Scotland, I talk to people who have been to Scotland right, but I haven't experienced Scotland until I've been there. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, and I was taught well, you can't experience it until you get to heaven.
Christie Hodson:Mm, mm.... That's a powerful thought
Kristy Hodson:if the kingdom of God is on earth, what does that mean?
Kristy Hodson:I don't know,
Christie Hodson:those aren't just words.
Kristy Hodson:I'm still trying to figure it out.
Christie Hodson:Oh, stop being curious. That's overrated, absolutely not. That's, that's, uh oh. One emotion people often spiritually bypass and we also also something we don't want like to talk about is is grief, um, also trauma? Um, likely, because they are immensely uncomfortable feelings. So as a society, and even within, like our spiritual communities, we don't even know how to deal with these emotions effectively.
Christie Hodson:You mentioned in your readings, Kristy, that you came across a quote by a grief psychologist and a Zen priest. I thought that was an interesting combination. Her name was Dr. Joanne Cacciatore. Okay, can you read the section of your book that you mentioned to me? It's her book "Bearing the Unbearable and what she had to say about bypassing grief and trauma.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, so this is really powerful. "We, as modern humans, are experts in bypassing grief and trauma, cutting ourselves off from pain. Fear drives bypass, curtailing authentic feelings, and bypass leaves us psychologically imprisoned in our own fear. Then we become too frightened to allow our love to flow out, and we build these high walls around our hearts to self-protect. So in so doing, though, we cut ourselves off from humanity, our own and everyone else's. Somewhere in our hearts, many of us recognize that truth." And she goes on to say fear drives bypass, curtailing authentic feelings. Bypass leaves us psychologically imprisoned in our own fear". Wow.
Kristy Hodson:So that's one of those other cages? Yeah, Mm-hmm. Okay.
Kristy Hodson:Fear.
Christie Hodson:That part of we cut ourselves off from humanity our own and everyone else's. It's a huge isolating process, isn't it? We can't draw together in our grief.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, I mean, we just look at it when a fear of other people groups. How much are we missing by being afraid and isolating and othering, and then we're not able to be our authentic selves either.
Christie Hodson:And fear drives that hugely, doesn't it? Yeah, is there anything more that resonates with you in that passage?
Kristy Hodson:So I see this too with the fear of loss of connection. It's a fear that keeps us from trying for authentic connection in the first place, because I'm not going to reach out to you, because then I'm afraid that I'll be hurt when it's lost, so it's better not to have it at all. So it's that fear of being seen and then rejected. So what happens when you speak out, are you then going to be rejected? Except most of the people that I see speaking out against spiritual abuse and toxic behaviors?
Kristy Hodson:In my faith tradition that I was raised in are those who are retired or on their way out. So there's no consequences, or there's no worry about what kind of retribution is waiting in the wings, because it can be a very system that loves retribution, because that's how you keep them in power right, and when you're about to retire, you're on your way out, you're already retired, then those powers that be have no stronghold on your livelihood.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, right.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, and it's hard to have courage to speak out when it's going to cost you your paycheck, your skills, your certifications, because they'll invalidate your credentials.
Kristy Hodson:It has happened.
Christie Hodson:It almost feels like you, I mean, even without working for the church, like there's no space under the tent to be free, and that's such a tragedy because you can have your connection with them, not be like a paid position, but it's almost like you feel like you have to leave the church to find freedom and I think that's a huge tragedy because it's again, I'm a huge proponent of how powerful a church can be, but also abhorrent by the toxicity that people should not have to endure.
Kristy Hodson:Well, and there's that fear that keeps you inside the box. Yeah Right, because what would it look like if there were no walls to that box? And what would it look like if I didn't have to fit in and I could be me? That's scary too, yeah Right. And what if you were allowed to be you? That's scary too. I might not be able to control you.
Christie Hodson:Shoot.
Kristy Hodson:For good or bad. Yeah, yeah.
Christie Hodson:Right, yeah, I just thought of something. Social media kind of brought out people's opinions that maybe they had kept quiet for a long time, for a long time. But now even the system of the social media is creating little silos and creating little algorithms to put us in these little boxes.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, it's everywhere
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, it totally is. You want to be categorized and know the haves and the have-nots. Yes, who's in and who's out? Yes, it's a very natural tendency.
Christie Hodson:Yeah, we're complicated beings, aren't we? We are. So how does this idea of bypassing tie into the broader human experience of avoiding discomfort or pain?
Kristy Hodson:Is there value in embracing discomfort instead of avoiding it? I think when we avoid discomfort or pain, all we're doing is numbing our symptoms of the hurt, right. So like you may take a medication that's just going to stop the symptoms. It's not going to get to the core root of the issue, right, and so we can't even fix, we can't find a fix, we can't even look at the root of our problems if we only focus on getting rid of the symptoms.
Kristy Hodson:So if I cover up the symptom, then you're not going to know what it's pointing to. I think we've seen that where we refuse to look at the racism that are fixed into the systems in our country that it was created, the systemic racism. So if we'll just ignore it, then, it's not there.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, let me treat this one symptom over here, and so I don't have to fix the root problem. But if I just keep taking aspirin because there's a pain where my appendix is, so I don't feel it anymore, is that going to help my appendix not burst? No, I'm just going to ignore it and get in bigger problems at the end.
Christie Hodson:Well, what I hear you saying, Kristy, is that when you challenge the status quo and you refuse to step into the metaphorical cage that was created for you, the justifications of their behaviors and minimization or dismissal of your deep hurt created a toxic environment where spiritual healing and growth felt impossible.
Kristy Hodson:Yes, definitely. I couldn't find healing within the toxic system.
Christie Hodson:And you tried.
Kristy Hodson:I tried, but for a time I thought I'm going to be one of those people. I'm going to fix it from the inside out, just like I said before when I was in the accounting side of things and that was my life. I'm going to learn how to fix it from the inside out. Bring in the knowledge that I have, make it better. But it didn't get better and I became bitter, resentful and tired. I was spiritually drained because I was trying to spend all my time trying to defend my own spirituality and humanity because they were saying both of them were unacceptable, and I also needed help from those outside the system to give me permission, because of the messed up and distorted and misaligned loyalty, to call what I was experiencing as abusive.
Christie Hodson:Wow, that's an element that I didn't expect you to mention. Yeah. Wow, because you didn't feel like you could get that. You feel like you couldn't get any of that truth within the system, could you?
Kristy Hodson:Right, I could say I was hurt, yeah, but again, oh, I can't call it abusive because that's disloyal. Yeah, they wouldn't abuse.
Kristy Hodson:Yeah, no, they it was abusive!
Christie Hodson:Which is why people have called spiritual abuse such an oxymoron, because spiritual is a wonderful thing and abuse is a terrible thing. How can they go together?
Kristy Hodson:Right, but to say yes, this does hit the litmus test of being abuse. Yes, yeah, it does not need to be minimized. Yeah, it is serious. Yeah, because church hurt maybe, maybe not serious; Abuse, trauma, that's serious.
Christie Hodson:Wow, what a packed segment that was. I personally found the way she articulated the fitting in process that involves cutting off parts of who you are to be immensely profound. And then, if you find yourself in a situation where a church system requires this process, how that can lead to the isolation from the body of Christ, ridicule for even bringing up issues, your loss of support, your loss of community, and how that can affect one's faith, and that overwhelming feeling that to conform will mean being caged, that you have to change this to be a part of us.
Christie Hodson:I want to thank Kristy for being willing to be vulnerable enough to share how this journey feels on a soul level. I hope you'll stay tuned for the completion of my interview with Kristy, and that you'll go away from this interview with a renewed sense that, whether you will ever fit in to mankind's cages, that there is a freedom and belonging in Christ.
Christie Hodson:Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both.
