Soul Bruises

Episode 18 - Breaking Out Of The Cage: Rebellion, Misplaced Loyalty and Authentic Faith - Part 1 of 3 (Featuring Pastor/Chaplain Kristy Hodson)

• Christie Hodson

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"Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both."

Christie Hodson:

Hello, my friends and fellow soul defenders. My name is Christie and this is Soul Bruises, a podcast devoted to taking a closer look at spiritual abuse. Whether you're a new listener or returning, I want to welcome you to a podcast that is addressing spiritual abuse out loud. Today, the Soul Bruises podcast has a guest host, and not just any guest host, but someone very special to me. Her name is Kristy Hodson, and no, I will not be interviewing myself, but the OG herself, the original Kristy Hodson.

Christie Hodson:

From the moment I met my twin cousin, I was fascinated by her wit, authenticity and her unapologetic quest for truth. She is a powerhouse of honesty and curiosity and isn't afraid to challenge the status quo. Someone who speaks with intention and listens with care. Kristy is a downright incredible human being and I'm so excited for you to hear her voice, her story and her heart in today's episode. Kristy is a passionate advocate for emotional and spiritual integrity. In her personal journey, she has learned to navigate the complexities of faith, family and personal growth. Through her experiences, Kristy has, unfortunately, been deeply acquainted with spiritual abuse, and it's her resilience in spite of that and the lessons she learned in her life that I think you will most relate with. We discussed numerous topics that explore the concepts of fitting in and belonging, being a rebel, personal autonomy, emotions, cognitive dissonance, being put in a box, groupthink, distorted loyalty, misplaced loyalty, generational trauma and much more. In the end, Kristy weaves these experiences into a recipe for not only spiritual growth, but rejecting the excuses and the minimization of uncomfortable emotions. Kristy's path highlights the courageous journey she has taken in embracing uncomfortable emotions rather than avoiding them, and offering hope and insight for those seeking healing and growth. I hope you enjoy this candid conversation with Kristy Hodson.

Christie Hodson:

Sadly, Kristy's dad died unexpectedly shortly after this interview was recorded. This episode is dedicated to his memory. John Hodson Sr was 73 years old.

Christie Hodson:

Kristy L Hodson currently works as a hospice chaplain, providing emotional, spiritual and bereavement support. She is a graduate of Atlantic Union College, where she got a Bachelor of Science in Accounting in 2000,. Liberty University, where she got a Master's in Religion and Marketplace Chaplaincy in 2013,. And the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University, where she received her MDiv with a chaplaincy emphasis in 2016. She is currently finishing a certification in interfaith chaplaincy with the Chaplaincy Institute, after spending 13 years working in the fields of accounting and human resources for the radio industry in Boston, Massachusetts and Memphis, Tennessee, Chaplain Kristy took a new path. Chaplain Kristy's ministry has led her to pastor in South Bend, Indiana, while in seminary, and then to spend five years as a pastor in Stoneham Massachusetts. She was commissioned by the Southern New England Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in 2021. She next pursued advanced chaplain training, including spending 18 months in Ocala, Florida, as a hospital chaplain.

Christie Hodson:

Chaplain Kristy began working in hospice in early 2023, where she feels called to help people tap into their own sources of hope and to provide a comforting presence to all she meets. Chaplain Kristy enjoys reading and writing, spending time with her family and her beloved Persian cat, Charlie.

Christie Hodson:

Welcome, Kristy, to the Soul Bruises podcast. I'm so excited to have you here as my guest.

Kristy Hodson:

I am so excited to be here and see you in person.

Christie Hodson:

We get to do this right across the table from each other instead of like across the miles, so this is wonderful.

Christie Hodson:

This is a significant moment for me because I remember discussing this over a year ago I think it might have been at Olive Garden where I was beginning to like publicly address the spiritual abuse that, or I was planning to publicly address the spiritual abuse that I've been witnessed for years and you've always been a strong advocate for those that have been harmed and such a great supporter to me personally, and so in doing this podcast, I really want to thank you for joining me. So thank you.

Christie Hodson:

So when I married into the Hodson family, I quickly learned that there was Kristy Hodson.

Kristy Hodson:

The original

Christie Hodson:

Woohoo OG, beyond our shared names, with mine spelled right, of course,

Kristy Hodson:

You can think that

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yeah.... we share a passion for seeking truth, staying curious and continually learning what true and authentic faith is. What immediately resonated with me was about how well read you were, your insightful perspectives and your willingness to challenge the status quo, which is often difficult as a woman. As you've learned, listeners a little bit about your own spiritual journey and what experiences have shaped your current understanding of faith or of your faith or?

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, sure, and I'll start by a little spoiler those insightful perspectives, the well-readness, the willingness to challenge the status quo, yeah, those have been the most difficult part of my spiritual journey. And in the high control, closed system religion that I was a part of, so I grew up, my family has been in we'll just in the Seventh-day Adventist church. We'll just start right there. Some people know what that is, some people think it's a cult and I think there are some extremes that definitely can be that way. I don't feel like the Seventh-day Adventism that I was raised in in my home was cult-like. We still were in touch with my grandfather's side of the family that was Catholic.

Kristy Hodson:

My neighbors were of all faiths and no faiths, so we were very inclusive in our neighborhoods and weren't limited to just other Adventists, even though for my schooling from first grade through college and then later for my master's degree, have all been Seventh-day Adventist schools, including a two-room schoolhouse for first through seventh grade.

Kristy Hodson:

But my mom was a pastor's daughter and a chaplain's daughter and in the 60's when she was growing up and raised, it was very much appearances. So it doesn't matter what goes on in the home, it's what other people see. So that kind of came through as well in how she raised me and my brother. And my dad was kind of in and out of the faith when I was growing up. He was a Marine during Vietnam and then joined the Navy and so for him for a long time God was for women and children, even though he also went through Seventh- day Adventist schools and met my mom in high school. But he would be supportive, he would go to church with us but he'd be watching TV on Friday nights and Sabbath when he wasn't there. But he supported my mom raising us this way.

Kristy Hodson:

But we also saw differences in our house on how people were raised. So my dad ate meat, my mom didn't, right? So differences are okay in how I was raised. You're allowed to not interpret things the same way. But as I got out into the rest of the realm outside my house, it wasn't quite that way. There was always a you need to be aware of what you're wearing. As a girl, it's your job to make sure that you control how people perceive you, especially guys. You can't wear open-toed shoes because toes are going to make men think of babies, right, and joking about that.

Kristy Hodson:

Purity culture was a big thing when I was growing up and I know I still have major body issues and issues related to that. Even if that wasn't necessarily something in my home, it was absorbed in the teachings right. Even now. Sometimes my mom would be like, isn't that a little bit? You know that V-neck's a little bit too V-neck and I just used to joke that's free advertising.

Kristy Hodson:

So I grew up in this faith and these church schools and as a young person I wanted to be involved and there were times where I didn't feel that what I had to bring to the table was important. I totally know now I am tone deaf, I should not be singing up front, right, but it was a talent show for the church and this is one of my core memories.

Christie Hodson:

Oh, interesting

Kristy Hodson:

It was a talent show for the church and this is memories of my core memories And so I went and I sang and I was elementary school at most, because I went to boarding school for high school and the pastor afterwards, cause I sing a song.... And the pastor afterwards said " maybe you shouldn't ever do that again".

Christie Hodson:

Oh no,

Kristy Hodson:

At least that's how I remember it.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old were you?

Kristy Hodson:

I was under the age of 10. Okay, and apparently I was just telling my mom the story. I never told her, or she didn't she didn't know.

Christie Hodson:

Was this not done in front of her?

Kristy Hodson:

Apparently not, and so there was always something of you gotta.... It's how people see you, what you're wearing, what you actually believe is irrelevant, it's what they think you believe. In sixth grade, I think, is when we did baptismal classes, that was our Bible study, that was our Bible class in the pastor's office, and so after that you get baptized. So I was baptized at the age of 10. That's just kind of how it was, and I was always kind of we'll use the word rebellious, because I didn't understand the traditions of the faith that I felt were what's the word? They just didn't make sense to me.

Kristy Hodson:

For some of them, I understood. So if you know anything about Adventism in, I'd say, pre-2000s and even some now it's adornment. You don't want to bring attention to yourself, so women look frumpy because you don't want to bring attention to yourself. Makeup wasn't really allowed nail polish, jewelry and I have always had a love for jewelry and I will admit that at one point in time I was shoplifting clip-on earrings because my mom wouldn't buy them for me.

Christie Hodson:

Of course right.

Kristy Hodson:

Right, and I think lipstick too, and that one I got caught on. But it's okay, I do not have a record,

Christie Hodson:

you just got out of jail this year

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah. That's it.... and I couldn't understand why that was not acceptable. But you could wear a brooch the size of your face and a very loud scarf, or have a Rolex watch and that was okay. But me having a pair of $10 clip-on earrings was bad.

Christie Hodson:

So I have a question already, and it's not one that I even planned on asking you. I'm hearing you say that performance was a big deal, what was on the outside was a big deal, but then when it came to the actual adornments, those were not like allowed to happen. So like, how is a 10 year old, is that supposed to even make sense?

Kristy Hodson:

Well, it's not. Because, you're not supposed to think that critically about it.

Christie Hodson:

But you were a critical thinker.

Kristy Hodson:

Yes. So my parents have always been big readers, always encouraged it. I was the kid who, when they went to the room and was punished, get sent to your room. I'd find a book or find some entertainment myself and my parents were like it's time to come out now and I'm like, no, I'm good,

Christie Hodson:

That's awesome

Kristy Hodson:

So I was always reading and that can unleash critical thinking and imagination. And while these things that I'm reading, their life is so different. They don't have these weird rules that don't make sense, and so I was. I recognized this cognitive dissonance pretty early on.

Christie Hodson:

Can you explain a little bit about cognitive dissonance?

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah. So it's kind of that idea of you maybe know one thing and then you're doing something that's in violation of that. So it's, or it's the opposite effect. So there's this gap between what you know and how you live and I could see it.

Kristy Hodson:

So, like Halloween. Most Adventists didn't do Halloween, you know, it's all devil, whatever. My mom loved Halloween, so we always did Halloween, even it was just in our own house, in our own neighborhood. But you don't talk about it, right? Because you need to hide these aspects of yourself that make someone judge you that you weren't righteous enough or you would need to be corrected. And again, that was part of her upbringing. She grew up in a fishbowl, basically being a pastor's daughter, and that's difficult and that kind of carries on through.

Christie Hodson:

And for all you, pastor, daughters and sons out there, you know exactly what she's talking about.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, Because you can't be a child, because you're a representation of your parents.

Christie Hodson:

Quite a lot of pressure.

Kristy Hodson:

So that was part of it, and I also didn't have good experiences in my faith-based schools. I was bullied quite a bit. My brother was one of my bullies at school and so when he went to boarding school and then left when it was my turn to go to boarding school and went to another school. So we spent a good eight years not going to school together and that was very healthy for us.

Kristy Hodson:

But it was at a horrible year in eighth grade, bullied by mean girls. And how can a school that is based on faith and you're supposed to be bringing up good citizens, good citizens of God not intervene when they know bullying happened? Yeah, and like my teacher tried to protect me and provide safe spaces for me.

Christie Hodson:

But not stop the problem. Did you feel like you had any other kids that understood you or you you could connect with? Did you feel like you were all alone

Kristy Hodson:

id think in in elementary school my best friend was my neighbor who lived across the street. They didn't go to church. So super supportive, love doing things together. I had a couple of church friends, but most of my support when I was younger was people who were not a part of our church and as I got older and after college it's been the exact same way.

Christie Hodson:

Interesting, Okay.

Kristy Hodson:

My biggest support has always been from people outside the denomination. It's the people inside the denomination who say that I am not doing what I need to do to fit in. You're being rebellious. Sometimes I wore that proudly. I don't anymore. But and we'll get to that.

Christie Hodson:

Yes, we definitely will. Because, there you know you're definitely not a status quo person. No, I've only known you for what? 10? No, probably. Oh. Has it already been 20-something years?

Kristy Hodson:

Probably yes

Christie Hodson:

But even I know in the last 20 years you're not status quo and I've just always appreciated that, but not always appreciated if you don't fit some sort of mold for somebody for sure.

Kristy Hodson:

And so, again, the way that the Adventist Church is, though it's very you need to fit this mold. We love our check sheets to know that we're doing what we're doing right, and if you don't fit that check sheet, you either have to hide a piece of who you are or you need to change because you need to fit in, because, in my experience again, my experience it is a knowledge-based faith. It is not this is my experience with God. Maybe it is for some people this is how my faith is impacting me. It's about knowing the right texts, the right doctrines and being right. It's not about this is how God is showing up for me in mystical experiences. Oh, my goodness.

Kristy Hodson:

Might as well burn you as a witch.

Kristy Hodson:

So those are not allowed. So it's all about what you know, and part of that has to do with when the church was formed. It was formed during a time after the Second Great Awakening, in the 1840s through 1860s, where you convinced people by debating. So it's all about having the right debate answers. And so I think that's why there's such focus on doctrine and proof texts and knowledge versus experience.

Christie Hodson:

Okay.

Kristy Hodson:

I think we're going to get into this later too, but um,

Christie Hodson:

I t's almost like the emotions scare people.

Kristy Hodson:

yes, because the heart is deceitful among all things.

Christie Hodson:

That was a tough one to understand,

Kristy Hodson:

Right, right, and Adventists love their proof texts. They'll pull something out, whether it's in context or not, and sometimes they are 100% valid, right. And sometimes it's like, wow, you're trying to manipulate me with a proof text or an Ellen White quote one of the founders of the church, on people who I know have extreme faith and are very into and have the best intentions and it's used to shut down critical thinking and discussion. Yeah, yeah, you know. If someone's like, oh well, I wonder if something could be interpreted this way, like, well, Ellen White said this, to shut you down. So there is very much critical thinking, is not it?

Christie Hodson:

Well, it's a control mechanism. You know, if they can shut down your critical thinking, especially as a young person, they can get you there. Then they maybe get you for the rest of your life.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, so I'll share another story about that. In high school so I went to a boarding school about four hours away from home and it was one of the more liberal boarding schools. Boys and girls could hold hands. They no longer had separate sidewalks. We could have radios. I smuggled in caffeinated coffee just labeled it decaf and introduced people to coffee for the rest of their lives when I was 14 years old, which my father helped me with.

Christie Hodson:

Oops! Dads in trouble.

Kristy Hodson:

He was always rebellious, which maybe that's where I get it from. So we could have music. I was a big 90s grunge rock, all that kind of stuff, and is also enjoyed listening to music that my dad grew up on. So I had my CD player and I took some of his CDs, like Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin, along with my own Offspring and Metallica CDs and that kind of stuff and one day the deans kind of.... I guess we went too far. We must have put something on our answer machine, because we have answer machines and I think I had an offspring song on there with me and my roommate.

Christie Hodson:

Google those for anybody under 15.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, pretty fly for a white guy. yes

Kristy Hodson:

Yes And so the dean's like this is not appropriate, we are going to confiscate your stereo system and we're going to confiscate all your CDs. Right, because they had that power, they were in charge. And they called my mom because, I think so dad was in the Navy when I was growing up, so he might've been deployed or somewhere, I don't know, but my mom was the one who came up and they called her and they're like look, we've confiscated your daughter's stuff If you can take it back home, but you need to come to the Dean's office and get it. And my mom drove four hours......

Christie Hodson:

Oh wow, oh wow!

Kristy Hodson:

.... to come up. I think it was on a weekend and by this time she know it was she living in Massachusetts, I don't remember, but anyway she came up and she was talking to the deans and looking through the cds that I had and she was seeing the Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, and she's like "well, thank you very much, These are my husband's CDs, shoot Right. So a, I'm seeing I know this music is okay Cause my family listens to it. And then when the Dean said, you know, I asked him why can I not have these CDs, because I want to know what I did wrong Because this is okay at home.

Kristy Hodson:

Yes, I know there's different rules at school, but tell me." I want to know why, because then maybe I'll follow the rule". I need to know my personality. I need to know why this is important. What's the motivation behind it? Because my family taught me principles, not rules, yeah, and they said well, janis Joplin, jimi Hendrix, they did drugs and we don't want people who did drugs and you looking up to them as a status symbol, and so I said to them but I can have an Elvis CD right

Kristy Hodson:

and they're like, of course you can have Elvis, he does gospel music.

Christie Hodson:

Oh

Kristy Hodson:

He also did drugs.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yeah, I think he died that way, didn't he?

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, and so, but they didn't see the disconnect. Yeah, and to me.

Christie Hodson:

Do you remember what their response was to that?

Kristy Hodson:

They just kind of waved me off from what I remember. Like oh

Christie Hodson:

Because they probably didn't believe he did drugs.

Kristy Hodson:

Or it challenged that cognitive dissonance. that they had it challenge their thinking. Because it's easier to make a list of these are the bad bands, these are the good bands yeah.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah.

Kristy Hodson:

So you just follow your. And you did have a list of you know you shouldn't have these people like no, Marilyn Manson. But he wasn't on the list. Elvis wasn't on that list, but that that's why they're on the list...

Christie Hodson:

Shoot

Kristy Hodson:

And so that's me at like what, 16, 17 years old, explain it to me. Yeah yeah don't just give me a trite answer.

Kristy Hodson:

Make me understand but you basically just got shut down, yeah and I feel like that has often been the response of the church system I was in and I've described it as I think I had a fairly balanced family system growing up, but it was overarched with an enmeshed system of the church.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, because you had relatives. Well, your grandparents were a pastor and a pastor's wife, and that can be tricky.

Kristy Hodson:

And if that's your schooling, that's your church. We did Pathfinders, which is like the Boys and Girl Scouts version in the church and if that's a big part of your life, it really becomes. It's like another family member in that enmeshed family system. So that kind of that's where I'm like okay, I'm going to challenge, because I was taught to challenge and understand. My parents did not always have a good experience growing up with the way the church treated them. I felt like they were hit over the head with things, so they wanted me to understand principles.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah,

Kristy Hodson:

And shame on them, Because I learned a thing for myself.

Christie Hodson:

I was going to say thank goodness they did that for you, Because look where you are now. You're so wise.

Kristy Hodson:

So then I was able to develop values of my own core values and I was able to develop values of my own core values and with my family. They've always been around people of all different faiths and nationalities and cultures, always Because they both worked outside of the church system and wanted to be a part of that. So I had that built into my value system and I would question does this go along? Sometimes, yep, and then it might be a long time before I learned to like or realized that there was something that maybe should be questioned?

Kristy Hodson:

I remember growing up the whole time it was this is the church with THE TRUTH. The tests at the end of time, you're going to be asked about whether the Sabbath, that's going to be a big saving thing, what you believe. Have an answer always ready for what you believe and it's based on what you know and believe that your salvation is going to be based on.

Kristy Hodson:

And it's okay if other people don't believe what you believe. We can still befriend them, but you're held to the light through which you have received. That's like a big Adventist phrase so you've received this light, so you can't go anywhere else because then you are abandoning this. So changing to a different church or whatever wasn't even in the realm of idea, and most people, even I would say in my experience that I know if they stopped being Seventh-day Adventists, they didn't find another church home, and then it's assumed that you've abandoned God, and so that's the pressure too that the parents are feeling. So you need to fit in. You need to show them, even if we know better. You need to show them that you're doing the right thing.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yeah, Because they don't want you to be hurt by the system, by them expressing, you know what they're actually going through, but at the same time, there's been no space for them to do that. In turn, there's no space for you to do that in the system either.

Kristy Hodson:

Right

Christie Hodson:

And luckily you had that space at home. I know that I remember when I was younger, having the right answers, I was always hoping that somebody wouldn't ask me what my religion was about, because I didn't have it all the right answers perfectly wrapped up in a bow and I was so nervous that somebody that would get it wrong instead of you know, at some point in my life my faith became part of my heart and you know it was easier to reflect that, but yeah, anyway. So it was the more like, oh, I don't know the answers.

Kristy Hodson:

Ya, right because, if it's knowledge-based. Yes, you have to have certainty.

Christie Hodson:

Yes, yeah, yeah

Kristy Hodson:

So, yeah, there's that. And then it got so when I so I went through college, I made it through an Adventist college without taking a single religion course.

Christie Hodson:

How in the world did you do that?

Kristy Hodson:

Um, because I was in an honors program. Because you have to perform and you know I'm brilliant. Yes, you know, that's how you prove your worth. Is you know you're smart?

Kristy Hodson:

I always was told I was smart. I appreciate that it wasn't always about the body, because that's what I thought it was. You know, with the purity culture, that's what your body's for, but my mind. So my parents always said you know smart, and so you got to live up to that. Right, and I will admit, things come pretty easily to me. So I was in the honors program, and that meant, instead of taking four religion courses, you would only need to take two, you know, instead of one a year. And I took ethics courses.

Christie Hodson:

Oh there you go.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, which is right up my alley anyway, but that was part of my rebellion. Right, let me find a way around the system, because should you be mandating this for people? Right, again, thinking how can I get around the system? Because I feel like it's too strict. So I was doing that in college.

Christie Hodson:

Was there any part of you that like felt guilty, that you were like rocking the boat a little bit, or is that just kind of you felt like that was really truly who you were and you're just living out who you?

Kristy Hodson:

I think for some of it it was a..... You grow into this persona, like I've been told. I was rebellious. You know, I wanted to wear earrings. One of the biggest disappoints of my mother's life is when I went behind her back and got my ears pierced at 16. Right, we joke about it now. Um, but I did that and she was like why would you put holes in your body? And this is to tell you the type of kid I was. I was like "how do you know that Eve didn't have pierced ears and sin closed?

Christie Hodson:

Oh shoot.

Christie Hodson:

That's a good joke.

Kristy Hodson:

That's literally what I would say.

Christie Hodson:

How did you get these comebacks, these are amazing!

Kristy Hodson:

I can rationalize many, many, things.

Christie Hodson:

I love it, I love it.

Kristy Hodson:

So that's the personality that I had and then you'd lean into it. Our family is a family of jokesters, so it's really easy you know, you learn, so it's really easy you learn to do the comebacks and that kind of stuff right. But also I knew there were people in my family who weren't churchgoers or were in and out, and on my dad's side and my mom's side everyone was super, either working for the church system or very big into that.

Kristy Hodson:

So in college I didn't take any religion courses, studied Accounting and English, went to work for a radio company as an accountant and was with them for 12 years or so. And one of my thought processes was. I want to go get real world experience and bring it back to the church because they have pastors doing business jobs and hospitals are closing, conferences are mismanaging money, schools are closing because they're putting someone in a position because of their title, not because of their experience.

Kristy Hodson:

Because while I was in college, my senior year of college, the big hospital in Stoneham Massachusetts, closed, and like I had friends who never got paid their last paycheck because that closed. And so I'm like, okay, so you don't have the right people who have the right business skills doing things in businesses that are associated with the church. Let me go get real world experience and bring it back.

Kristy Hodson:

So even though I had stopped going to church by then, moved out of the dorms, kind of doing my own thing, I still wanted to be able to give back and be like this is what.

Kristy Hodson:

Let me see if I can fix the system.

Christie Hodson:

Okay, how old were you at this point?

Kristy Hodson:

So I was probably, so that was in 2000, so like 22 years old, when that happened. And then went and worked for a radio company and I love my heathens there. So because it was in, you know, Boston, yes, so not I don't know that anybody I worked with went to church. Maybe a few did. But again, that just reiterated to me that there are supportive people, good people, in every walk of life. Just because you drink or go out or eat this or don't eat that, it doesn't make you a bad person.

Christie Hodson:

And that wasn't necessarily a culture shock to you, because your parents had been around other people and you knew you weren't so sheltered that you got outside the church and were like oh you know you weren't surprised by that.

Kristy Hodson:

Right, and I did a internship for two years under a DJ over there. So I was like "babysit your kid while the strippers come in, the office type thing. So I was exposed little by little to a little bit more. I mean, I wasn't exposed to strippers growing up, but I was in my 20s from this internship, right, just getting to know real people and again seeing, hey, wait, they're talking about their kids and their nieces and their nephews. You are a whole person. You are not just this piece of you that I'm focusing on. You are not your job, you are not who you're dating. You are not the band that you are in. You are a human being. You put your pants on one leg at a time, like I do, yeah, and that working there also helped me see that no one is better than anyone else.

Kristy Hodson:

This rock star should want to meet me as much as I want to meet them. And so I worked for them for a long time, ended up going down to Memphis working for them and I was the controller. Six radio stations down there. Ended up I was also the local HR.

Kristy Hodson:

So if people were going to rehab because this is the industry we're in they would come to my office. I was in charge of firing people and sometimes we had to do mass firings just because of budget cuts, and I would help make those decisions. I had someone cry tears of joy in my office at being fired.

Christie Hodson:

Okay?

Kristy Hodson:

Because they were working for a horrible boss who was a manager. They were bound by their contract, yeah, and now we paid them to leave. Wow, it just became a really hostile work environment, okay, and I started thinking okay, there are all these people who I'm there to make money for them and they're mistreating their sales employees, their DJs, the people who make them the money. There's a problem Because I still have this value system, right About what I think is right and wrong, regardless of where I'm at, and even whether I'm doing something that I think is right or wrong, because I may think something's wrong but still do it because I'm human, really.

Christie Hodson:

I don't know. You have that picture of you and Tom Brady, so maybe you are super human.

Kristy Hodson:

That was pre-kids. He made a bad decision. Who knows? I think I dodged that bullet.

Christie Hodson:

What could have been?

Kristy Hodson:

Yes. So I had people in Memphis that would come to my office and pray, because in Memphis everyone went to church.

Christie Hodson:

Bible Belt

Kristy Hodson:

Bible Belt. So you're going to your Catholic church. I met some of the most devout Catholics down there, people who were singing in the church choir, even though they were part of the LGBT community and to what extent they had to hide for church, I don't know, but they were up there singing in the choir because they had that's what their faith, demanded of them. Yeah, because they were living out their faith. It was just part of your every day.

Kristy Hodson:

Where when I was in Boston, if I told someone, oh, what did you do this weekend? I went to church. I'd be like you know you didn't want to share that, because how would you be judged? Because it's what people think of you and the judgments they make of you, And God forbid the authentic you, is someone they don't like.

Kristy Hodson:

So then when I was in Memphis, this was really starting to bother me. This hostile work environment, they're not taking care of employees, and I was like I need to do something different, and so I called my grandfather. The one who was a hospital chaplain for well over 40 years. He was a church pastor for about eight years. Previous to that he had been in the Navy. He was a Catholic who became Adventist when my mom was three and then wanted to go and go into ministry and he was very much abused by the system.

Kristy Hodson:

60s and 70s and 80s were not good A lot of misuse of power and you're the little peon, and so I talked to him a little bit about it. Amazing man of faith, and we talked about you know, in my life people seem to be comfortable talking to me. I have a comforting presence. People open up, like someone first time meeting them. They might tell me their whole life story. I'm just something about me puts people at ease and I tend to see people. People with mental or emotional challenges are drawn to me for some reason and I think it's just because I see them as people yeah, not their challenges and it's always been that way because, again, that was another population that my parents had, friends with disabilities we hung out with them. They're kids, they're not a kid with a disability. They're kids, let's not label them. So you see them for who they are.

Kristy Hodson:

And so I talked to him and I said, well, maybe chaplaincy is what I need to do. And he was like, just make sure, whatever boundaries you have on your faith and what you want, you stay true to it.

Kristy Hodson:

And he told a story of how he was taking a class that was run by someone else and he told them, "hey, I need to leave by Friday night, so that it's, you know, by sundown, friday, because I'm not going to work on the Sabbath. And he's like and the teacher's like, well, if you walk out the class, you'll get an F, and he was prepared to do it. And then the first time it happened came to that Friday night, the teacher's like well, "eo's got to go, so I guess we're ending class early.

Kristy Hodson:

But he's like you need to be willing to put your values and your face on the line and live that out, because you have to be able to live with yourself, yeah, yeah. And so I started thinking about some of that and again, so that's part of that value system that has carried me through and caused me to be troublesome, because I'm going to hold up to a value and so I started taking classes online at Liberty University for a marketplace chaplaincy and did that, finished that up when I got moved back up to Boston for a little while, still doing the accounting work full time, this part time and I was just about to graduate and I went to my conference president.

Kristy Hodson:

His wife knew my mom. They were nurses together. So I made an appointment and said hey, I'm finishing a chaplaincy degree. Is there a job that I could maybe do here? He laughed at me and said why would we have something for you?

Christie Hodson:

Ouch,

Kristy Hodson:

"We don't hire chaplains. I don't know where you would go to get a chaplain job, maybe if you want to go to Ohio and work at one of the hospitals over there. But here, talk to Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries. They work with all the chaplains, but you're never going to get hired here. Wow, and at that time I think maybe in the history of the Southern New England Conference there had been one to two women pastors ever employed.

Christie Hodson:

Wow, Can you explain a little bit about what a conference president is? For those that aren't familiar with the Adventist system.

Kristy Hodson:

So they're kind of set up in regions, and so the Southern New England Conference would cover Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island, and so the president is in charge of all the pastors, all the operations, kind of like a regional person. And the way the church structure goes it's your local church talks up to a conference that will then talk up to a union which is a bigger geography and there's several conferences in the union and then it goes into a division, so like North America, and then you have the huge corporate umbrella headquarters. So that's kind of where that is at.

Kristy Hodson:

And then I talked to the people at Adventist Chapters Ministries decided that I was feeling called to follow and try military chaplaincy.

Kristy Hodson:

I was just within the age cutoff to start seminary and I was originally going to go to a local seminary here because they said you need a Master's of Divinity, which I had been directed against when I did my online courses because, again, it was a Southern Baptist school. So why would we direct women to Masters of Divinity if we can direct them to a smaller masters, that doesn't count, right?

Kristy Hodson:

And I I was called a cult member when I was taking those classes. But whatever, but they liked the way that I wrote. So even when they didn't agree with something, they're like, well, you did the work and you get an A, but I disagree with you, and that was fine. I was used to people disagreeing with me and so I packed up and went to Michigan because if it wasn't an Adventist seminary, it was not going to count for Adventist chaplaincy ministries especially where I didn't take any religion classes in college and so I had to be properly indoctrinated in how to be an Adventist minister.

Kristy Hodson:

So I was a Navy chaplain candidate, got commissioned into that within the first month of me going up to Andrews University, spent three years living there, getting my Master's of Divinity with a concentration in chaplaincy, getting my master's of divinity with a concentration in chaplaincy, and then needing to work as a pastor for two years after that before I could transition into being an official Navy chaplain and going active duty or reserve. And in the meantime, like in the summers, I would do trainings with the military either. We did one in Newport, Rhode Island, for officer school, did some chaplain school training After I graduated, spent two weeks aboard an aircraft carrier, just kind of learning all that. So that was kind of where I wanted to go. And the reason why that was so appealing to me is, I said, I want to work with people who would never step foot inside a church.

Christie Hodson:

Why was that important to you?

Kristy Hodson:

Because I figured if people already have a church they don't need, they should have the support they need there, right, or they already have their views or what they think the right answers are, so they already have the help. So let me help people who maybe would never walk inside a church and just be there for them. I never wanted to convert anybody church and just be there for them. I never wanted to convert anybody. Evangelism is something that I hate, which is exactly what a pastor is not supposed to hate. Right?

Christie Hodson:

Such a catchphrase?

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, because who am I to tell you that your beliefs are wrong, I don't want you telling me mine are wrong, right. So again that goes back. So like evangelism goes against my grain.

Kristy Hodson:

So I was without a job, for a good, lets see, May, June, July, August five months Again.

Kristy Hodson:

It was a different conference president this time and director and I think maybe some people behind the scenes were helping pressure to get me hired because, like, you just need to hire her for two years, we'll help you out with salary, because at the time I think it's still now they're trying to hire women pastors, so you'll get a price break on the salary and the division and the conference and the union will help pay if you hire the first three years.

Kristy Hodson:

And so I think there was some maneuvering back around and like, oh, we're going to hire you, we don't know when, yet when you'll start. So I spent months not wanting to get a part-time job because I wasn't sure when I'd be getting in. And so I ended up in September of 2016, starting to work as the associate pastor of a church north of Boston and was also supposed to work, split my time with the school that was a part of that church, which at the time was Preschool through 12th grade. The administration at the school didn't like being told that I was supposed to work with them and did not make space for me, to the point where, when the Bible teacher was going to be gone, because he was also the basketball coach, I was the fifth person they thought of to substitute teach his class.

Christie Hodson:

Wow, wow, Do you think that was a gender thing?

Kristy Hodson:

Yes

Christie Hodson:

Okay, I wondered what the catch was.

Kristy Hodson:

Yes, because there are still many people who do not think women should be in ministry in the Adventist Church. So that was one of the big barriers and it would, at first there was a little honeymoon period at the church because I had been a member there. My dad's grandparents helped build that church. My brother and sister-in-law got married in that church. There's people who knew my family. They knew me. I'd been the treasurer of the church for a little while and coming back as a pastor, I had a little group of support, which was essential. I have female pastor friends who did not and it was devastating, but that honeymoon period not always last right.

Kristy Hodson:

And the administrators did not know how to talk to a female pastor, especially one with opinions, and at one point they even said we don't know how to talk to you, so they brought in someone else.

Christie Hodson:

As if you're some sort of alien or something.

Kristy Hodson:

Right, right, I would ask the same question a male pastor would ask, and I would get a talking to afterwards for being confrontational. If I said, "ey, we were talking about doing this program, about bringing in women speakers for something, but I was getting some pushback." The word pushback was labeled militant, but then, when they used it two minutes later, after telling me I was militant, I said but that's not militant,

Christie Hodson:

yeah yeah

Kristy Hodson:

But then I was confrontational.

Christie Hodson:

Talk about more cognitive dissonance.

Kristy Hodson:

Right and they'd be like oh, someone said we get an anonymous email about you but we don't worry about those, so don't worry. And then it was brought up later. Oh, but this anonymous email about you, about that the church wouldn't be okay with women pastors even though they were, there were some, didn't are. The church that I was at had a wonderful spectrum of super conservative. They'd rather fast than like have to buy something on Sabbath if something happened, or people who are buying their Dunkin Donuts and bringing it in on Saturday morning. There was a huge, vast mix and it was ethnically mixed, socioeconomically mixed and religious perspectives mixed, all in the church. But they thought it was super conservative because that's the loudest voices who would complain.

Christie Hodson:

Right.

Kristy Hodson:

So they they wouldn't come to the church to look, they would just list that. But they said, oh, but we don't listen to an anonymous email. But then that was used later.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, I think that's so dangerous Anonymous stuff yeah.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, yeah, um. So that was hard. But I'm like, hey, this is two years, it's no big deal. The senior pastor left. I was told that I would not be in the running to be the main pastor of that church, even though I ran it for a year and a half, I think, or at least a year by myself. I was never up for that because women were not main pastors, but it was getting close to this two-year thing. I'm like, okay, two years, fine. And I was getting ready, just going through all my physicals again with the Navy, found out that I was pre-diabetic. They did a blood sugar test and it was like 101. And because that was on my record, I became ineligible.

Christie Hodson:

Oh, shoot for the Navy

Kristy Hodson:

For the Navy.

Christie Hodson:

Oh wow,

Kristy Hodson:

And didn't know what to do. Like this is what I expect to do. I don't want to work for the church. They're meanies, right? They don't know how to treat their workers. They run them ragged. They don't like women. I'm, you know. I think I could.

Kristy Hodson:

I'm trying to fix it from within. But I'm getting tired, didn't know what to do. Then I was like okay, went up, spent some time with a friend who's a social worker crying on her couch. One of the conference officials who was filling in. He came out of retirement to fill in called me because I told him what happened. He's like called me because I told him what happened. He's like I'm so sorry. We see God working in you. You have a home with us for as long as you need. We like what you're doing. I was connecting with youth. I made a way for myself in that school I would have lunch with the kids because they wouldn't let me do anything else.

Christie Hodson:

That's big Quality time.

Kristy Hodson:

So I'm like all right, I don't have to worry about paying my bills, I don't have to worry about providing a life for my cat, we're all good right. Then I got a call from the Adventist Chaplaincy Institute or Adventist Chaplaincy Group, who said, "ey, we were just in a meeting with a lot of endorsers and the air force is willing to look at you they don't think your blood sugar will be a problem.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, and so I started filling out paperwork for them. And then I was at a pastor's retreat and broke my elbow. Now normally broken elbow, whatever. People heal right right. First broken bone in my life and I severely dislocated my elbow, shattered my radial head into three pieces, so I have a fake one in and I have there's a extensive soft tissue damage, so that it has now been over six years and it has not healed fully. So like anything with pressure hurts. Can't do a push-up to save my life without pain, can't even cut a bagel without pain, and so I would not meet the physical standards. The Air Force had said give us a call when you heal and we'll resume.

Kristy Hodson:

I never healed, so military done, and I also at that time was praying and saying, "God, if it's not what I'm supposed to be doing, that time was praying and saying God, if it's not what I'm supposed to be doing, let something happen that stops it, but not because of something that's my fault. So like don't, let me not get into the military because I can't run fast enough right, because then that's my own personal failure, right? I'm giving this to you. If there's something where I'm not supposed to, if there's another path for me or whatever, have it be something that I have no control over, that makes it not happen.

Kristy Hodson:

Apparently I'm stubborn because I thought, oh, if it's not the navy, then maybe it's the Air Force, and then I had to break my arm.

Christie Hodson:

Shoot and how did you break your arm?

Christie Hodson:

Was it dodgeball or something?

Kristy Hodson:

It was dodgeball. I was going to stop. They had just redone the floor. I kind of tripped and basically half punched a wall to stop myself. And you don't heal....

Christie Hodson:

Wall one, Kristy, zero

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, and after 40, you do not heal the way that you used to. My niece ended up fracturing her elbow a little bit later. She's fine.

Christie Hodson:

Oh man, the elbows are tricky though.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, so I stayed on at the church, needless to say, ended up working there for a total of five years. I feel like I was well loved by most of the congregation. There were some that still had problems with women. Sure, there were people who would call the conference every time I wore pants, because that's not women, it's not what women are supposed to do. So, again, it's those traditions that don't make sense. And I'm like, I'm on a raised platform, I like a lapel mic, yeah, so I can walk around.

Kristy Hodson:

so having something to clip it onto, because I'm not going to clip it onto my bra or my underwear or whatever right. I don't want anyone to do an upskirt of me so this is the modest thing to do and I was getting like nice suits from Ann Taylor. I wasn't just like wearing jeans, right and they would call the conference and complain about what I was wearing, to the point where I was brought in several times to talk about it and we need to like kind of being brought to the principal's office for having dress code issues for wearing pants while I was preaching on the pulpit.

Kristy Hodson:

And I said to him, because he was like you know it's, and I'm like this is the modest thing. If your concern is modesty, this is it. So again, this is the. Where are you coming from? People are upset and they think it's cross-dressing from whatever and whatever. Back when both men and women wore dresses right, these were bought in the women's department, right, and they brought me in and at one point I said to them would you rather them? I'm like either they really want to check out my legs and that's why they want me to wear a . dress Do you think they'd be more offended by my pants or by seeing the tattoos that I have on my ankles?

Christie Hodson:

Oh wow

Kristy Hodson:

Because that's another like I've always loved tattoos and I got my first one right out of high school and have gotten them throughout my life. Yeah, um, like, and my local church knew I had them because occasionally I would wear a skirt if I was not up front or whatever. So they knew and some of them loved it.

Christie Hodson:

So did that shut him up?

Kristy Hodson:

And then he's like he didn't know what to say yeah, but yeah, it was interesting.

Kristy Hodson:

And it's again the you don't fit our box of what people need. Yeah, and it just made me think of the other thing with that you don't fit our box and my mom, growing up a pastor's kid one of the things that she always said to us of why we shouldn't do something right. So like we could do it at home but maybe not out there. So like I could wear a toy necklace at home but not outside, because you don't want to be a stumbling block to someone else.

Kristy Hodson:

That was the big thing. Well, if they see you do it, then they might think it's okay. Well, maybe it is okay, so you don't want to be a stumbling block. So in that way that verse has been weaponized to keep people in place to fit in when they shouldn't.

Christie Hodson:

Yes, yes!

Kristy Hodson:

Right?

Christie Hodson:

Yeah.

Kristy Hodson:

And so they. I even had when I was interviewing for pastor jobs, and I have a tattoo on my arm of an ohm. They're like well, what if you have a seven-year-old kid come up to you and say, "Pastor Kristy, I have, you have a tattoo and I want one too. What are you going to say to them?" As if I should be ashamed that I have it. I tell them to come back to me when they're 18, because no one's going to give a seven-year-old a tattoo. Do you see how?

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yes, yeah, and you knew this because you'd been out of the bubble.

Kristy Hodson:

The things that they were afraid of to me made no rational sense

Christie Hodson:

And you needed them to make rational sense because your critical mind needed that.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, yeah. But as I worked those last three years for the conference, I just got more and more issue about me showing up. I'm an advocate for the LGBT community, so there was always something like that in my sermons. I spoke up for Black Lives Matter in my sermons, talked about that, not in a super political way, but acknowledged-.

Christie Hodson:

In a human way.

Kristy Hodson:

In a human way. And again I had a mixed congregation. I need to show that I at least can connect on some level and that I'm aware of what's going on and affecting your lives.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, because it won't matter what you say behind the pulpit if they don't trust you or know that you have their.

Kristy Hodson:

And those are my actual beliefs, so I'm not going to hide them either this is who I am, and so some people didn't like that either who I am, and so some people didn't like that either. And it just got more and more challenging. There was more and more issues of unacceptableness for women, I would ask. So I was on the track for what I call ordination light, because there's a sexist view of ordination in the Adventist Church. They don't officially ordain women, they commission them, which is a lesser acknowledgement and actually reduces the things that you can do pastorally. And then you're only bound to your local conference and no one else has to acknowledge it when with ordination, it's a worldwide acknowledgement.

Kristy Hodson:

And I asked hey, all these guys that I've been in this training class with has been ordained. And I thought it was like kind of a five-year process. Where am I in that process? And I was penalized for even asking the question. Wow, how dare I? And the way that we do ordination, it's an acknowledgement of the Holy Spirit's work in you, yeah, working through you. It does not imbue you with any special powers. It's not the same type of ordination that maybe the catholic church does. It's a we see God using you. And this was hey, we took time to evaluate and see. And how dare I ask? So I was just too in your face, too assert, too aggressive and how dare I challenge?

Christie Hodson:

Almost like they were trying to take the place of the Holy Spirit. You know, make that decision for you. I mean, how dare you ask? But how dare they that back. You know.

Kristy Hodson:

And it became all about power and definitely saw that after I left the church and started working as a chaplain, where I had my credentials withheld, because I won't give free labor as an elder in a church where they have to have power over me because they don't require that for men and there's a different standard.

Christie Hodson:

So I was denied because I'm not a man. I have a friend that is a theology professor and she feels like many of these colleges are doing women a disservice by even encouraging them to join the theology department, because in the end, this is often the result.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, they want your money but they don't want your work.

Christie Hodson:

And that was her whole point.

Kristy Hodson:

I had a friend who I went to seminary with, who went to seminary because they saw in this church paper a call for women. She got there and we went to school and no, they didn't. They don't want women pastors who will speak up, who will advocate for themselves, who will advocate for the lesser, who will push the status quo and they won't re-educate conferences. That's a whole. In local congregations, that's a whole.

Kristy Hodson:

'nother thing that, like there's been lawsuits in other countries because of it um, that thankfully the woman pastor won, um, but it's just all of that mess. So I ended up finally getting commissioned as I was applying to leave, and I think that was their send-off present to me, knowing that it really didn't matter because no one had to recognize it outside of them.

Christie Hodson:

And tell me how that showed up in an announcement? Because there was four of you guys right?

Christie Hodson:

And this might not seem like a big deal, but when you said it it was like, oh, it would have made me upset.

Kristy Hodson:

Yeah, so I call it being asked to promote my own discrimination.

Christie Hodson:

Such a great way of putting it.

Kristy Hodson:

So it took me a while to find the words and I'm so thankful for my. I was taking clinical pastoral education at the time with an interfaith group who there were no Adventists in there. I love non-Adventists so much.

Kristy Hodson:

And again they were so validating, more so than my colleagues, and helped me find the words for the toxic system and the emotional and spiritual abuse that was going on. But they put out flyers of commissioning of Kristy Hodson and there were three other guys who were in my thing that were getting ordained and I was getting commissioned, and their big promotion to hear their ordination, whatever. And I even struggled with whether I should accept being commissioned or not. I know friends who didn't because they're like we're not gonna play the game, yeah, but I also felt like the it was important and it also helped other people see who had been to ordination services, who went to commissioning service and saw there was nothing different, so there shouldn't be anything different.

Kristy Hodson:

But afterwards, when they were promoting it in social media, well, during the program, they said thank you to this church for letting us use your church. It was my church, like I was the associate pastor of that church and had been. But you know, maybe you're just being kind and nice because you're the visiting whatever and they had, you know, had a message that was not tailored to me at all and said you know now that that you're doing ministry, people are going to be toxic to you, and I'm just laughing saying yes, because you have been. But I don't think they ever called me a pastor during that ceremony. It wasn't until I think I was leaving that I was called a pastor by the upper people in my own congregation, to my own congregation, and then online they would know do, hey, we, we ordained so and so here's some pictures of the thing. Um, we're so proud of pastor so and so, of xyz church being ordained, and it was kind of like copy and paste for these three gentlemen. That's what it was. And then I looked at mine.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yeah

Kristy Hodson:

And it said something about commissioning the ministry of Kristy. I was not called a pastor. Thank you for this church for letting us use their facility. Didn't say I was a pastor of that church, Nothing. And I actually sent screenshots to the president who was in charge of the social media and said what's up with this? Completely ghosted.

Christie Hodson:

So someone who doesn't know your character would think that what you're saying is like well, you know they didn't recognize me. I want to be called pastor, I want to be acknowledged. This it could come across as like you know, pay attention.

Christie Hodson:

No, no, no, no. This is not. The point I want to make is that that's not your character at all, and people who know you know that you are. You are trying to work with the system at the same time being bullied on the side, being marginalized on the side. And yet when it came down to public recognition, They could pull off something like that at the risk of you saying something, but if you said something, you would be perceived this way.

Kristy Hodson:

And if I said something out loud, if I had put on my social media page hey, look at the difference, right, then I would make the church look bad. And, oh my goodness, you do not make the church look bad, because enough people out there want to make the church look bad and the church has the truth, so you have to not make. That was the other thing. Don't make the church look bad. Yeah, so there's this loyalty to the church institution. Because what will they think? Yeah, and we need other people because we're not well known to think good of us and not think that we're a cult and all this other kind of stuff. And if I threaten their power, if it's seen as a threat to their powers, what will the ramifications be?

Kristy Hodson:

Because I know there are times that my grandfather....... disciplines the wrong word, but he had consequences if he tried to speak out about something. And they would be like oh, I guess we don't need to pay you for this anymore. right, um, or I guess you don't need a raise this year. So petty vindictive is very much how control is. But also, when you are a pastor in that denomination, right, you're not supposed to have any other job unless you are intentionally part-time or lay pastor. Right, your credentials are only really for that church system. You are hired and fired at will. You're technically an independent contractor, which is how most pastors are hired, just in the US, regardless of denomination. So you don't get unemployment insurance. If you have anything like that, you can't file for unemployment.

Kristy Hodson:

They have your livelihood in their hands and so a lot of times people don't speak out about the injustices in the system that they see until they are nearing retirement or if they've left. Again, they no longer have a hold for me because I now work as a hospice chaplain and am going another route even, so they have no power. They cannot take away my livelihood. They can say you can never preach in one of our churches, that's fine, I don't care, but they don't have power over me, which is also why they won't.

Kristy Hodson:

They refuse to give me my ministerial license right now because they don't have power, and that's something they want. And that's something they want, yeah, because we need to be able to control you. So you say the right things and you, you stay in your box. It got to the point where I was losing sleep. They brought in other women in leadership on the division level and you on the division level to talk to me, because they didn't know how to talk to me and her solution was to make yourself smaller, to not speak out when you see something wrong or discriminatory. Just make yourself smaller, be quiet like a mouse and just deal with it. Be glad you get paid the same as men and let it go, which I can't do.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, just sit down and shut up.

Kristy Hodson:

No, that doesn't work, because I'll embarrass somebody if I bring something to their attention that they didn't realize Right, or I'll call them racist or wrong or sexist in what I say. So just make yourself smaller. And I'm like, okay, this is bad.

Kristy Hodson:

I had fought earlier for a mentor because they wanted they were doing mentors for a female pastor mentor and had to look outside my region and I found one and she was great, helped validate that so I wouldn't gaslight myself about what was going on. She was even in a position where she could have conversations with some of those leaders to be like, hey, how can you know, as her mentor, how can I help her with things like that and some of the things that she was hearing. It was just like, wow, you guys are not in the same realm of reality that we're on. And when an opportunity came for me to move to Florida and become a hospital chaplain as I finished up my clinical pastoral education, I took that. I'm like, okay, it's time for me to go, I need a clean break. It was still within an Adventist hospital.

Christie Hodson:

That was my next question. Is it an Adventist system?

Kristy Hodson:

Because I, hey, I had the right training and they only hire full-time chaplains that are Adventist. So, hey, I got an in right there. It went well. The conference was happy to see me go, because then I was no longer troublesome. My church today still is like we wish you were our pastor again. Well, it became your family. Yeah, because I saw the people that no one else sees. It's not about who makes the most money, it's who's sitting in the corner quiet, yeah.

Christie Hodson:

Right.

Kristy Hodson:

And so I went down there for a year and a half, finished m y pastoral education. Did not have a good time Because, again, it's still the same type of leadership. It was former youth pastors who were running the departments there. I'm sure they're wonderful people, but competent women are not something that they know how to deal with, especially if the skills that I have are ones that they don't.

Kristy Hodson:

I have a lot of administrative skills and that's one of my giftings and I'll often over-function to compensate for the lack of organizational skills of men on my team, something I'm working on, and so, but that, apparently, is intimidating, and so it just got really difficult and and a lot of problems just personal problems that went into work for everybody else and everyone had a lot going. I mean, they were still.... This was I went down there in 2021. So there was still like COVID going around and you know people were had PTSD from that and some people did not do as much as others because they chose not to get vaccinated so that they couldn't do as much of their job in the hospital right, things like that, which, whatever your view is, I don't care. It just meant that you couldn't do this piece of your job and someone else had to do it for you because you chose that right. Whatever, that's fine. But then you have people getting. It becomes your over and above, becomes the expectation, and I was just burning out.

Kristy Hodson:

And when I tried to talk to HR all that it problem, was somebody else's problem because of the way that they were set up and I ended up then. I just need to be close to my family, to my friends, helped my other friend who was chaplaining down there, who brought me down there, get out. Because it's hard to get out of these systems that you've been trying so hard to prove your worth for. And like I thought I was called to this. What does it look like to not be employed by the Adventist church and still doing ministry? Will someone else accept what I have, especially where we ended up not getting the backing of Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries with our licenses because we were not men and so we were held to different standards and different hoops we had to go through that men did not have to go through. But she is doing wonderful palliative care chaplaincy now in a hospital. So proud of her.

Kristy Hodson:

And then I came up here and I went into hospice. So I had applied to like different colleges and some hospitals but I didn't want on call work and my best friend died just before she was 40 on hospice at home from breast cancer and I was with her family during the weeks for that. So I saw it. The grandmother that was your side of the family that knows as well, um had died on hospice at my uncle's house the year that I graduated seminary on hospice at my uncle's house the year that I graduated seminary. That's when they both died. So I knew what hospice was and so I made the move into hospice chaplaincy and I think that's where I need to be and have felt very fulfilled there.

Kristy Hodson:

And again, 110% of the time it is the people outside my faith tradition who have been the biggest supporters of me outside my faith tradition who have been the biggest supporters of me.

Christie Hodson:

Even, even, even, when you bring up your, your faith system, they don't like you know, push you away. Like you belong in another club. You're, you're seen as Kristy, as a human, yeah.

Kristy Hodson:

Those who have left the faith system are some of my biggest supporters and best friends.

Kristy Hodson:

They've left the system, but they're still no. This is this. So it's not like leaving the faith system is leaving faith. And once I realized that I would have to go through all these hoops to get even to get a less acknowledgement to get my ministry credentials, I started looking okay, I can't do this anymore, I cannot be a part of the system.

Kristy Hodson:

The system has gradually maybe not gradually, but the last several years has become even more and more closed. So I say that my church left me, not so much me leaving my church, because what that broad spectrum of beliefs that they allowed because originally we had no creed has kept shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. They're hugely anti-LGBT. Many of my loved ones are a part of that community still staunchly sexist, very have a problem with that. Things that were preferences. So the Adventist church has been big on a health message, right, and hey, you know, being vegetarian or vegan is probably better for you, but it's okay if you eat meat, right, that's all right. And now, even from the top, they're like well, you should really be vegan to be Adventist.

Kristy Hodson:

And that's not there and you know. The other thing that really bothered me and bothers me is the idea. So when I was raised, we were taught that the Seventh-day Adventist church, Seventh-day Adventists, are part of God's remnant people. Right? For revelation and all that, and so it's our mission to share and tell the truth. Because we're part of that remnant people and because I have known people from all faith walks of life, I have always read that, as there are God's remnant people, and they will be from all walks of faith, right, there is no remnant church, congregation, denomination. There are God's remnant people of faith and more and more, the system, the global president of our church, says the Adventist church is THE remnant church. That is a huge violation of my values where, if you don't keep the Sabbath and hold to all our doctrines, there's not salvation for you.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, it's like salvation plus.

Kristy Hodson:

Ya! And that is that's ...

Christie Hodson:

That's a false gospel, really

Kristy Hodson:

And so yeah, and so it keeps getting narrower and narrower,

Christie Hodson:

and more and more controlled by man

Kristy Hodson:

Right.... very much.

Kristy Hodson:

And and that box.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah

Kristy Hodson:

You have to this box and if you don't, you need to change yourself or you're lost.

Christie Hodson:

Yeah, yeah, according to, according to box makers

Kristy Hodson:

yes, yeah and so I had, I started looking and I do interfaith work. I work with people of all faiths and no faiths.

Christie Hodson:

So you haven't like completely dumped faith altogether?

Kristy Hodson:

No, I still have my own faith. I'm a member at an Adventist church. I go visit sometimes, I preach sometimes for friends. I do not have a home congregation and community of any faith. I'm still figuring out what that looks like for me, but I started a certification for interfaith chaplaincy and I will be getting so. I'm almost finished with that and we'll be getting ordained through them in October, because I was so afraid to go to a retreat that they had because I didn't know anybody and I was so used to walking into rooms of Adventist pastors and already knew that I didn't they were going to be there was something... Right?.... that I wouldn't feel safe or I would feel judged or already, just being a woman. Am I the only woman in this room? ... which I'm used to being. That's no big deal, what is it? I'm not conservative enough, right, and so I was so scared I walked in and it was like immediate acceptance. I'm like I found my people, It was amazing!

Kristy Hodson:

And so there is some community I get from them and, like I said, I'm I'm excited to be on this journey and and learning more about all these different faiths, which I knew had some knowledge anyway, because I love to read and study, but delving a little bit more deeper and spending a year with a different faith tradition. I just spent the last year with a pagan group and just getting to know them as people and we have a lot of the same beliefs about how we can see the divine in nature every day let's connect about that.

Kristy Hodson:

and so I'm loving it. I feel supported and I will be changing my credentialing and you know it's considered a transfer of ordination and I will be ordained. There was a big discussion on whether I wanted to go through the ordination ceremony or just get the certificate and I decided it was worth going across the country to get ordained in October.

Christie Hodson:

Good for you! Good for you!

Christie Hodson:

Do you feel like you've found other people that want to think critically too, like they're like you found your. You say you found your people, but like do they want to think critically? Do they want to think openly? Do they? Do they get stuck on their whatever walks of life they came from?

Kristy Hodson:

I think they can. They do want to think critically and they, they may be 100% sure of what their faith looks like. Right? But that doesn't mean that they're closing you off to your own faith experience.

Christie Hodson:

That was my question.

Kristy Hodson:

Yours doesn't have to match mine, yeah, and also, interestingly enough, maybe not a lot of them have gone through or experienced at some level not all of them spiritual abuse. So you might find, like former evangelicals or people who had no faith background, who are like there's something and I need to explore what faith looks like.

Kristy Hodson:

So there's the spiritual, not religious. There's the people who you know they were raised with a Buddhist understanding or whatever you know, got Jewish, and so some of this was a.... I had to relearn what interfaith meant. So when I first started I was like, okay, I'm going to go do this, but does this mean that I can't say Jesus was the son of God, because that doesn't cover all faiths, but I can still hold on to my own faith. I don't have to negate everything. I have to be interfaith. I can say, wow, yep, I believe Jesus was the son of God. I can also say I think this Buddhist practice is really awesome and I can honor it in you and if something of that helps me, then great, and if it doesn't, that's okay too.

Christie Hodson:

Wow, wow!

Kristy Hodson:

Right? I can have appreciation for the truths in your faith and I can admit that there are truths which I've always believed that there are truths in other faiths and that mine was not the sole container for truth. So Adventists may have the truth, but we could learn a lot about loving people from, maybe, your Hindu and Buddhist friends. So that's where I am at now. I still have faith. There's still some of that loyalty and that upbringing. My family is still all in the church, but they are so supportive of me, like some of my really conservative family members, have helped me with tuition to pursue this, because they see that this is the path, the only path for me to be doing the ministry that God is calling me to do and show up for, because the church prevented me.

Christie Hodson:

Wow, Wow.

Kristy Hodson:

And there's really no other way, and I'm like, okay, so that's a God thing.

Christie Hodson:

Absolutely.

Christie Hodson:

Stay tuned for the second part of my interview with Pastor and Chaplain Kristy Hodson, where we dig deeper into her faith walk. She talks about fitting in versus belonging, her struggles to be authentic in an environment that seemed to care more about appearances. We sift through the weeds of the loyalty issue she experienced in the face of blatant spiritual abuse and sexism. She talks more about the importance of critical thinking, asking questions and wrestling with cognitive dissonance. If you have any questions or comments regarding this episode or any other episode of Soul Bruises, please send those to

Christie Hodson:

soulbruises@ gmailcom

Christie Hodson:

Until the second installment of my interview with Pastor and Chaplain Kristy Hodson.

Christie Hodson:

Be Human, Be Kind, Be Both

Christie Hodson:

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People on this episode

Head Shot

Christie Hodson

Host
Head Shot

Kristy Hodson

Guest